Kate Upton upset, but misinformed, about country club policy

[Abu3baid]

Maybe the question is this:  should people who are not members of a particular private club impose rules on that club that clearly conflict with the will of the members?  And should non-members interlope in defense of a sub-set of those members who have not complained?

I have to say that I don't think these questions have any standing in this argument really. Basically someone who was trying to protect their practices could always proclaim the above questions to silent away the critics without first exploring what is being said. However if I wanted to answer these questions I would simply say. 1. Yes they should, and I would GIR the example that if this same private clubs had a by law that blacks are not allowed to eat lunch between 11-2 there needs to be a mechanism to put this practice to an end. Now I know this isn't the case but since you made a general statement I gave you an example where I would answer with a yes.. Back to our example, there is no one claiming to want to go and change any private clubs golf playing time rules, but we have the right to discuss and express our opinions in regards to the subject! Also to claim that it is the will of the members is very strange as it is possible that 95% of members could be white for example so you can't say that it is the will of the blacks to not be allowed to eat from 11-2. 2. Yes, they should.. These members might be afraid to express their own opinions in fear of back lash from the country club and termination of membership. It might be the most prestigious club in town so they want to be members here and they can't afford to complain.. I can think of many other reasons why the people who are being discriminated against do not complain.. Heck it happens at work all the time because the person doesn't want to lose their job and be seen as shaking the boat!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Sounds to me like someone else's knee is a bit twitchy.  You are basing your entire premise on supposition with no facts to support it.  YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER!!  Most women I have known and played golf with over the years did NOT have Tuesdays available any more than the men did (at least, not until they retired like I did).  They didn't have Mondays or Thursdays either, two other common "Women's Days" - what the club considers a throwaway day, so why not make it look like we are being generous and call it Ladies Day.  I worked as a starter at my home course for 5 years.  Tuesday was typically the slowest day of the week.  I assume that is why it became Ladies Day on the courses mentioned above.

I don't care that Saturday mornings are full just with men - that doesn't make it right to bar other members from the opportunity to play.  Such a policy is simply bigoted.

My home course happens to be a public course.  Almost every course I've ever played is public.  The one private club that I played occasionally with my brother-in-law didn't practice any sort of discrimination that I ever observed.  His wife, my wife's sister, was an excellent golfer and played many Saturday mornings with us.

Incorrect. My position is that the policy is not NECESSARILY discriminatory. I'm not professing to know anything without having personal knowledge of the situation. Yet you, just like Mr. Chasm have proclaimed it "simply bigoted" knowing no more about it than I do. Thank you for proving my point about the liberal mindset. Some people believe that they can buy a "stairway to heaven" and some believe that they can secure their own with enough politically correct rhetoric. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS UBER ALLIS!!

If you actually knew me you'd never call me liberal.  I simply happen to respect women (and people in general) and feel that they have been pushed into a second place position for far, far too long.  They get it in the workplace and they get in in the private sector.  I abhor elitism in any form, and this reeks of it.

This thread just reinforces my general dislike for private clubs of all kinds.  The sort of mindset that brings someone to join a club which exercises discriminatory policies is so foreign to my thinking that it might as well be from another planet.  I was raised in a Republican household, but I was also taught that there is meaning to the words that our country is founded on.  Despite that so many of the founding fathers only paid lip service to the words they wrote, I was taught to take them literally, that we are all born equal.  I have never seen  anything that suggests that we should bar women from any pursuit they wish to attempt.

[jamo]

I don't really care about what Country Club X in California does, but I don't think I'd particularly like to join a club that cared so much about the shape of my genitals.

[johnclayton1982]

I read the entire thread.  I really fail to see how "no women 8-12 am" is different from "no African-Americans 8-12 am".  It was the "will of the members" for no blacks to be allowed at the Baton Rouge country club back in the day.  That makes it OK?  I totally agree with those saying the rule is elitist and antiquated and, quite frankly, chauvinist.

Men look at themselves as "proper golfers" and have an enourmous amount of disrespect for women.  I mean, just look at this thread if you want proof.  This is a thread on one of the most popular golfing forums on the internet and there is no problem with mocking Kate Upton's opinion b/c she happens to be good looking and posting up objectifying photos (I'm surprised this thread is still open after that) of her.  Lets say Justin Timberlake said something wrong about golf - we'd post up pictures of his junk?  Imagine being a woman wanting to know more about golf and coming here and reading this thread.  "Inappropriate' doesn't begin to describe it.

We need more people in the game, not less.  This is an exclusionary rule and there isn't any other way to put it.  At least be honest and say "most women stink and we don't want them slowing stuff up" than this whole 'Tuesday is the same as Saturday' crap.  And if Tuesday is the same as Saturday, why not switch off?  Men on Saturday twice a month, Women on Saturday twice a month.

Separate but equal is never, ever equal.

For the record, I'm a liberal, so if you call me that its not going to hurt too bad. :P  In my experience, usually when people don't know what to say / are clearly wrong, they say things like "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS RUN AMOK".  Note that isn't an actual counter-point to the points being made here.

[rb72]

I read the entire thread.  I really fail to see how "no women 8-12 am" is different from "no African-Americans 8-12 am".  It was the "will of the members" for no blacks to be allowed at the Baton Rouge country club back in the day.  That makes it OK?  I totally agree with those saying the rule is elitist and antiquated and, quite frankly, chauvinist.

Men look at themselves as "proper golfers" and have an enourmous amount of disrespect for women.  I mean, just look at this thread if you want proof.  This is a thread on one of the most popular golfing forums on the internet and there is no problem with mocking Kate Upton's opinion b/c she happens to be good looking and posting up objectifying photos (I'm surprised this thread is still open after that) of her.  Lets say Justin Timberlake said something wrong about golf - we'd post up pictures of his junk?  Imagine being a woman wanting to know more about golf and coming here and reading this thread.  "Inappropriate' doesn't begin to describe it.

We need more people in the game, not less.  This is an exclusionary rule and there isn't any other way to put it.  At least be honest and say "most women stink and we don't want them slowing stuff up" than this whole 'Tuesday is the same as Saturday' crap.  And if Tuesday is the same as Saturday, why not switch off?  Men on Saturday twice a month, Women on Saturday twice a month.

Separate but equal is never, ever equal.

For the record, I'm a liberal, so if you call me that its not going to hurt too bad. :P  In my experience, usually when people don't know what to say / are clearly wrong, they say things like "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS RUN AMOK".  Note that isn't an actual counter-point to the points being made here.

In matters racial, separate but equal is an abhorrent and unjustifiable policy. In matters of gender the very existence of women's' sports depends on it.

[rb72]

Really, don't be silly. Ranting about political correctness isn't an argument.

The question is simply this. Should women golfers be treated on their merits, and given equal consideration to men of similar ability? Ifthe answer is yes, then it takes some pretty fancy footwork to suggest that they should be excluded from the course at popular times just because they happen to be women.

Sure it is. the fact that there may be a logical, practical reason for the policy that all have agreed upon (including the female membership) doesn't seem to matter to some tells me that their argument is that political correctness trumps all possibilities. I think it's funny that it has actually been revealed in this thread that there is in fact NO official policy barring women on Saturday but there is one barring men on Tuesday. Where's the outrage?

[chasm]

In matters racial, separate but equal is an abhorrent and unjustifiable policy. In matters of gender the very existence of women's' sports depends on it.

Embarrassing, really. Ever heard of equivocation? You should look it up. Nobody is suggesting that it discriminatory to have separate male and female competitions. The question is whether, outside of times reserved for other purposes, it is reasonable to exclude members of a club - all of whom have paid their dues - from playng at particular times purely on grounds of gender. It's quite simple, really.

[isukgolf]

I know better than to comment on this thread ...

Don't forget that many in the golfing community, prides itself in being rich in tradition and rooting in history ... so in my opinion only ... one only needs to look back a little to see some of the mindset that still exists in some places...

Not saying its good or bad, but I believe many bylaws of older clubs may need to be looked at prior to joining ...if those things both you ...

[rb72]

I read the entire thread.  I really fail to see how "no women 8-12 am" is different from "no African-Americans 8-12 am".  It was the "will of the members" for no blacks to be allowed at the Baton Rouge country club back in the day.  That makes it OK?  I totally agree with those saying the rule is elitist and antiquated and, quite frankly, chauvinist.

Men look at themselves as "proper golfers" and have an enourmous amount of disrespect for women.  I mean, just look at this thread if you want proof.  This is a thread on one of the most popular golfing forums on the internet and there is no problem with mocking Kate Upton's opinion b/c she happens to be good looking and posting up objectifying photos (I'm surprised this thread is still open after that) of her.  Lets say Justin Timberlake said something wrong about golf - we'd post up pictures of his junk?  Imagine being a woman wanting to know more about golf and coming here and reading this thread.  "Inappropriate' doesn't begin to describe it.

We need more people in the game, not less.  This is an exclusionary rule and there isn't any other way to put it.  At least be honest and say "most women stink and we don't want them slowing stuff up" than this whole 'Tuesday is the same as Saturday' crap.  And if Tuesday is the same as Saturday, why not switch off?  Men on Saturday twice a month, Women on Saturday twice a month.

Separate but equal is never, ever equal.

For the record, I'm a liberal, so if you call me that its not going to hurt too bad. :P  In my experience, usually when people don't know what to say / are clearly wrong, they say things like "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS RUN AMOK".  Note that isn't an actual counter-point to the points being made here.

"Men on Saturday twice a month, women on Saturday twice a month." That would be fair if your NOT taking the facts into consideration. If the (golfing) membership is five to one male that arraignment would give each male member one fifth of the available tee times than would be given to the women. A more fair policy would be to give the men five hours on Saturday and the women one hour on Saturday. Not only would that also elicit the same cries of discrimination from you and your ilk but it would also probably piss off the women of this particular club. Good job.

[Abu3baid]

Sure it is. the fact that there may be a logical, practical reason for the policy that all have agreed upon (including the female membership) doesn't seem to matter to some tells me that their argument is that political correctness trumps all possibilities. I think it's funny that it has actually been revealed in this thread that there is in fact NO official policy barring women on Saturday but there is one barring men on Tuesday. Where's the outrage?

We are also not just discussing one incident or one club, we are speaking in general terms.. It has also been discussed that the fact female members agree doesn't enter the equation for several reasons including the fact that they might not want to become outcast and seem to go against the flow of things.. A natural reaction when you are trying to belong to an exclusive class of people. There is no outrage because there is no perception of unfairness when you disallow men from playing on Tuesday, as most play on Saturday accordingly!

[Abu3baid]

"Men on Saturday twice a month, women on Saturday twice a month." That would be fair if your NOT taking the facts into consideration. If the (golfing) membership is five to one male that arraignment would give each male member one fifth of the available tee times than would be given to the women. A more fair policy would be to give the men five hours on Saturday and the women one hour on Saturday. Not only would that also elicit the same cries of discrimination from you and your ilk but it would also probably piss off the women of this particular club. Good job.

I don't think there is room for this kind of tone in the discussion, it is in real poor taste in my opinion!

[rb72]

We are also not just discussing one incident or one club, we are speaking in general terms..

It has also been discussed that the fact female members agree doesn't enter the equation for several reasons including the fact that they might not want to become outcast and seem to go against the flow of things.. A natural reaction when you are trying to belong to an exclusive class of people.

There is no outrage because there is no perception of unfairness when you disallow men from playing on Tuesday, as most play on Saturday accordingly!

Actually this thread was a result of a discussion of one particular club and its policies. I'm not arguing in favor of discrimination, but claiming that one case of a club distributing tee times a certain way based on gender is not necessarily discrimination. I'm sure many of the female members are spouses of male members and do you really believe they're afraid to complain to their husbands? Really? And I'm not saying what if the women don't mind, I'm saying how can one know if the women didn't want it that way and even vote for it. You don't know. And seriously! I take vacation days in order to play on Tuesday so I don't have to deal with the Saturday crowds.

[rb72]

I don't think there is room for this kind of tone in the discussion, it is in real poor taste in my opinion!

I have no idea of what "tone" it is you're talking about.

[Golfingdad]

I don't really care about what Country Club X in California does, but I don't think I'd particularly like to join a club that cared so much about the shape of my genitals.

I agree except with one minor correction:  "Country Club X" is actually on Long Island.  I clarified, after texting my brother, that their club actually only has an unwritten, and apparently unadhered to, men only on Saturday mornings rule.

[rb72]

I read the entire thread.  I really fail to see how "no women 8-12 am" is different from "no African-Americans 8-12 am".  It was the "will of the members" for no blacks to be allowed at the Baton Rouge country club back in the day.  That makes it OK?  I totally agree with those saying the rule is elitist and antiquated and, quite frankly, chauvinist.

Men look at themselves as "proper golfers" and have an enourmous amount of disrespect for women.  I mean, just look at this thread if you want proof.  This is a thread on one of the most popular golfing forums on the internet and there is no problem with mocking Kate Upton's opinion b/c she happens to be good looking and posting up objectifying photos (I'm surprised this thread is still open after that) of her.  Lets say Justin Timberlake said something wrong about golf - we'd post up pictures of his junk?  Imagine being a woman wanting to know more about golf and coming here and reading this thread.  "Inappropriate' doesn't begin to describe it.

We need more people in the game, not less.  This is an exclusionary rule and there isn't any other way to put it.  At least be honest and say "most women stink and we don't want them slowing stuff up" than this whole 'Tuesday is the same as Saturday' crap.  And if Tuesday is the same as Saturday, why not switch off?  Men on Saturday twice a month, Women on Saturday twice a month.

Separate but equal is never, ever equal.

For the record, I'm a liberal, so if you call me that its not going to hurt too bad. :P  In my experience, usually when people don't know what to say / are clearly wrong, they say things like "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS RUN AMOK".  Note that isn't an actual counter-point to the points being made here.

This is from the DB who claims he would carry on a cell phone conversation in the middle of a fairway when its his turn to hit and people are waiting for him as long as he's within his posted POP. Major DB.

[rb72]

Embarrassing, really. Ever heard of equivocation? You should look it up.

Nobody is suggesting that it discriminatory to have separate male and female competitions. The question is whether, outside of times reserved for other purposes, it is reasonable to exclude members of a club - all of whom have paid their dues - from playng at particular times purely on grounds of gender. It's quite simple, really.

There's no equivocation going on here. Racial analogies are not appropriate here. "separate but equal" (I didn't bring that up. Someone defending your position did) has one and only one meaning. It's not acceptable in matters of race. We're talking about golf, a sport. In sports "separate but equal" in terms of gender is a desirable goal. Especially desirable by women. the term is the same, its meaning is the same. Its application is completely different because unlike people of different races there are differences between men and women that need to be considered.

[jamo]

I agree except with one minor correction:  "Country Club X" is actually on Long Island.  I clarified, after texting my brother, that their club actually only has an unwritten, and apparently unadhered to, men only on Saturday mornings rule.

I should have just continued the math terms and said "State Y." ;-)

[cfritchie]

Quote:

In the words of Justice William O. Douglas: "The associational rights which our system honors permit all white, all black, all brown, and all yellow clubs to be formed. They also permit all Catholic, all Jewish, or all agnostic clubs to be established. Government may not tell a man or woman who his or her associates must be.

As an American who embraces "freedom", be it liberal or conservative I would think we would embrace an organization that offers nothing or takes nothing from the general public may have the right to determine their own rules and who and how they associate with others who have "chosen" to join the said organization. Why do we feel we have any right to tell a "private" group how they should make their decisions? Is their decisions sexist, racist, elitist? Well sure it is...so what? I'll go play and hang out with who I want because I don't want to part of "that" club...and when I create my own little private chess club I don't want to be told who I have to invite.

I have no problem with a private club setting rules on who can and can not use the facility and when they can do it. But, if a "club" generates revenue or benefit from the general public then the laws that protect those who can use the facility should apply.