Grasses outside of a bunker

[phan52]

I was in the back of a bunker with a downhill lie. The bunker had some long grasses surrounding the bunker, but very clearly not IN the bunker. I take my club back and brush the grass outside the bunker before striking the ball.

Legal?

[phan52]

I was in the back of a bunker with a downhill lie. The bunker had some long grasses surrounding the bunker, but very clearly not IN the bunker. I take my club back and brush the grass outside the bunker before striking the ball.

Legal?

Never mind, just found it in the rules, 13-4 Ball in Hazard. It's OK, in the backward movement for the stroke, to touch the grass.

I figured as much. My opponent didn't agree. He's a guy who is pretty knowledgeable of the rules so I got a little confused.

[Dormie1360]

I know, in your situation, the grass was outside of the bunker, but I would also make the point that as far as bunkers are concerned, things growing in a bunker are not part of the hazard.  So you really don't need to even consider the note under R13-4.  There is no penalty for touching the grass in a bunker with your club, and even if the grass were in the confines of the bunker, no penalty for grounding your club on the grass.

13/2

Status of Tree in Bunker

Q.Is a tree in a bunker part of the bunker?

A.No. Grass-covered ground within a bunker is not part of the bunker. The same principle applies to a tree. The margin of a bunker does not extend upwards.

[Rulesman]

Never mind, just found it in the rules, 13-4 Ball in Hazard. It's OK, in the backward movement for the stroke, to touch the grass.

I figured as much. My opponent didn't agree. He's a guy who is pretty knowledgeable of the rules so I got a little confused.

Ther grass was not in the bunker so 13-4 wouldn't be relevant anyway.

But if it was in the bunker this decision applies.

13-4/4

Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard

Q. A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A. No – see Note to Rule 13-4 . However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard.

[Dormie1360]

Ther grass was not in the bunker so 13-4 wouldn't be relevant anyway.

But if it was in the bunker this decision applies.

13-4/4

Touching Grass with Club During Practice Swing in Hazard

Q.A player takes a practice swing in a water hazard without grounding his club, but his club touches some long grass. Is there a penalty?

A.No – see Note to Rule 13-4. However, the player must ensure that his actions do not breach Rule 13-2 or constitute testing the condition of the hazard.

Hi Rulesman,

D13-4/4 deals with a water hazard.  Does not grass growing in a bunker have the same status as grass growing outside of a bunker?

[Rulesman]

Although 13-4/4 mentions a water hazard, the rule and the decision are about hazards of both types (see the titles).

It is simply giving an example to reinforce that live grass in a hazard is not ground in the hazard.

[Dormie1360]

I don't think that changes anything I said in post #3. I still don't think R13-4 is the applicable rule when ruling on grass in a bunker. I believe the definition of a bunker covers this.  The grass itself, and the ground from which the grass is growing, is not part of the hazard in a bunker.  This is not true with water hazards.  Although touching the grass in the back swing is treated the same in both bunkers and water hazards, this is for different reasons.

Other things regarding grass in bunkers and water hazards are treated differently.  (grounding the club, loose impediments)

Live grass in a water hazard is still grass in the hazard, which is not the case in a bunker.

I'm just being argumentative today......we'd both give the same ruling.

[Rulesman]

Live grass in a water hazard may well be grass in the hazard but is is not ground in the hazard and 13-4 is about touching the ground in any hazard.

Phan52 introduced 13-4 into the debate, correctly but arguably redundantly.

[Fourputt]

I don't think that changes anything I said in post #3. I still don't think R13-4 is the applicable rule when ruling on grass in a bunker. I believe the definition of a bunker covers this.  The grass itself, and the ground from which the grass is growing, is not part of the hazard in a bunker.  This is not true with water hazards.  Although touching the grass in the back swing is treated the same in both bunkers and water hazards, this is for different reasons.

Other things regarding grass in bunkers and water hazards are treated differently.  (grounding the club, loose impediments)

Live grass in a water hazard is still grass in the hazard, which is not the case in a bunker.

I'm just being argumentative today......we'd both give the same ruling.

Have you never seen a poorly tended bunker with grass growing up through the sand?  That ground is still part of the bunker - only the grass is not.

[Dormie1360]

U guys keep bringing up the "ground". I'm not sure how that relates to the OP's question. I agree with ur point concerning weeds or grass that's not suppose to b there. :surrender:

[Fourputt]

U guys keep bringing up the "ground". I'm not sure how that relates to the OP's question. I agree with ur point concerning weeds or grass that's not suppose to b there.

I was only replying to you, not to the OP.  The OP answered his own question before we chimed in.  You said no penalty for grounding on grass growing in the bunker , and I dispute that.  If the grass is growing in the bunker there is definitely a penalty for grounding your club in it.

There is no penalty for grounding in an area of turf within the boundary of a bunker because such turf is not part of the bunker.  The terminology is important in this ruling.

[Dormie1360]

The word pedantic comes to mine when I think you know that we both understand the rule.

BTW, You might want to email the USGA and tell them they're using bad terminology.

[Dormie1360]

Also, I will agree that 13-4 is applicable regardless if the "grass" is part of the hazard or not.  The above video shows what my comments were about.

[flopster]

The word pedantic comes to mine when I think you know that we both understand the rule.

BTW, You might want to email the USGA and tell them they're using bad terminology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C0HSjcFpDw

So if I'm understanding this correctly a player could in fact ground his club in the bunker if the ball is in a position showed in the video?

[Rulesman]

So if I'm understanding this correctly a player could in fact ground his club in the bunker if the ball is in a position showed in the video?

You understand it correctly. The ball is not in the bunker.