Are you ready for some NFL Football? 2014 Edition.

[meenman]

If anyone is suspended for the super bowl, it would have to be belicheat. A Brady suspension would be appealed and not applied until next year.

[Slice of Life]

There's no way in hell the NFL suspends their golden boy for the Super Bowl. Let's not forget that they don't care about integrity, only money. They'll be punished afterwards with some garbage slap on the wrist.

I just wish the Giants somehow made the Super Bowl this year so they could send Tommy and Billy home to their mommies again...

[club ho]

It is all about prior history. Belicheat has already been caught once, has won ZERO super bowls since and is caught again.

Any other team and I would buy the *sour grapes* theory.

The Patriots legacy is now all about cheating and if the NFL can't clean up their sport, they will pay - gamblers do not like betting on fixed games unless they are involved in the fix.

O BTW: The Patriots have the highest winning percentage in the NFL since the SPYGATE SCANDEL!  This is a big pile on by a country of jealous football fans who root for crappy teams. I hope Belichek pulls out all the stops and uses every crafty deception play he can think of.

There are a million possible explanations. So far we've debunked a bunch.

Maybe the Colts made this up to cover for a rape allegation? Nope, the ball was tested. Maybe it was a fluke, only one ball? Nope, it was just about all of them. Maybe it happened to both teams balls? Nope, just the pats. Maybe the line backer did it? Nope, not to 11 balls. Maybe the weather did it? Nope, not according to the laws of physics.

So sure. Maybe the refs didn't test the balls even though everyone says they did. Maybe aliens did it.

But throughout all of this, the obvious answer has been staring us all in the face. The team that had control of the balls, and benefited from their deflation, and has a history of cheating... Hmm...but we should not jump to crazy conclusions based on person bias, let's stick with the aliens.

Just produce the referee who definitive says Yes I checked the balls prior to the start of the game with a gauge and they were properly inflated. Then I would agree with you. At which time the Patriots get fined $25,000 the prescribed punishment as I understand it.

[Gunther]

There's no way in hell the NFL suspends their golden boy for the Super Bowl. Let's not forget that they don't care about integrity, only money. They'll be punished afterwards with some garbage slap on the wrist.  I just wish the Giants somehow made the Super Bowl this year so they could send Tommy and Billy home to their mommies again...

You don't think Seattle will do that? I don't think the Pats have a prayer, I just hope they can keep it a relatively close game. Brady better do some work on the grip machine this week.

[Slice of Life]

You don't think Seattle will do that? I don't think the Pats have a prayer, I just hope they can keep it a relatively close game. Brady better do some work on the grip machine this week.

I do, but it would be funnier if it was the lowly Giants for the 3rd time haha.

[meenman]

O BTW: The Patriots have the highest winning percentage in the NFL since the SPYGATE SCANDEL!  This is a big pile on by a country of jealous football fans who root for crappy teams. I hope Belichek pulls out all the stops and uses every crafty deception play he can think of. Just produce the referee who definitive says Yes I checked the balls prior to the start of the game with a gauge and they were properly inflated. Then I would agree with you. At which time the Patriots get fined $25,000 the prescribed punishment as I understand it.

Unfortunately, you come across as the typical Boston fan. I bet you boo a-roid, yet still worship manram and fat boy ortiz. If it was any other team, you would be screaming from the mountain tops, but since your life is based on the pats/red sux - they couldn't possibly do anything wrong. Let me guess, you think everyone is doing the same thing but belicheat and Brady are the only ones dumb enough to get caught.

[Slice of Life]

This is a big pile on by a country of jealous football fans who root for crappy teams.

That's funny, I have nothing against the Seahawks, Colts, Broncos, Saints...hell even the Steelers and Ravens (don't like them, but they aren't cheating scumbags).

So better luck next time. People don't like proven cheaters. And they just keep coming up with new and creative ways to give themselves an illegal advantage.

[Gunther]

I do, but it would be funnier if it was the lowly Giants for the 3rd time haha.

Aha, gotcha, I'm with you but I'm no Pat's hater, mostly because I'm an NFC guy. I can't stand Belichek, however, much the same way I never liked Parcells, even when he coached Dallas.

[dsc123]

O BTW: The Patriots have the highest winning percentage in the NFL since the SPYGATE SCANDEL!  This is a big pile on by a country of jealous football fans who root for crappy teams. I hope Belichek pulls out all the stops and uses every crafty deception play he can think of.

Just produce the referee who definitive says Yes I checked the balls prior to the start of the game with a gauge and they were properly inflated. Then I would agree with you. At which time the Patriots get fined $25,000 the prescribed punishment as I understand it.

I'm fairly sure that if the refs didn't check before the game the NFL would have said that and we'd all be talking about why the NFL lets the patriots cheat, instead of complaining about the patriots cheating.

When you talk about the patriots winning percentage, are you including the games when the Patriots used deflated balls?  And why is # of championships the measure of greatness prior to 2008 and regular season winning percentage the measure after 2008?

[Golfingdad]

I'm fairly sure that if the refs didn't check before the game the NFL would have said that and we'd all be talking about why the NFL lets the patriots cheat, instead of complaining about the patriots cheating.

When you talk about the patriots winning percentage, are you including the games when the Patriots used deflated balls?  And why is # of championships the measure of greatness prior to 2008 and regular season winning percentage the measure after 2008?

I don't think it's at all plausible to suggest that the refs didn't check before the game.  I would stipulate that fairly easily.  However, I partially agree with @club ho in the sense that this seems like such a silly little thing (not now, but before this weekend) that I can easily see it being something that the refs took a little less seriously than they did PI calls and defensive holding and stuff like that they "stress" each offseason.  Know what I mean?

Try to remember back to a fonder time (last Saturday ) before you even knew that the league had requirements for the PSI in their balls.  It's easy to consider the idea that the procedure they used to check the game balls could sometimes be something like grabbing it.  It's also easy to see that perhaps they grab one or two or five, and assume that the rest match.

No question they cheated, all of the Indy balls were properly inflated which eliminates the excuse that the cold temperature lowered the ball pressure.

I think if you and I were on a jury together, we'd butt heads.  As mentioned above ... there is absolutely still one big question.  When did the balls become deflated?  Once the referee comes out and says that they absolutely checked the balls before the game with a gauge of some kind and they all conformed then it will probably cross over the "reasonable doubt" threshold for me and I'll concede, but until then, I think this is a glaring hole in the evidence.

Unless you consider the attempt to get under-inflated balls through inspection as cheating?  I think most everybody would disagree with that, since everybody here is still good with Aaron Rodgers' admissions.

That said, Brady and Belichick should be suspended for at least 4 games in 2016.  Cheating is as bad or worse than PEDS so the punishment depending on how they view the number of rules violations should be equal to or worse than PEDS violations.   Maybe Belichick for 8 games and Brady for 4.

Highly disagree with a couple things here.  The way you say "cheating is as bad or worse than PEDs" is weird because it implys PEDs are something OTHER than cheating.  Second, the way you say it also implies that cheating that there are no levels, which I also disagree with.  Certainly, cheating is bad, but some types are worse than others no?  Playing with slightly under-inflated balls is closer to the grabbing a guys jersey or tripping a guy end of the spectrum than it is to the PED or intentionally injuring a guy, or point-shaving end of the spectrum, IMO.

Now that said, if they find that they cheated then there should be a decent penalty.  Harder to impose on Brady, IMO, because I feel like you'd actually have to get proof that he was involved, not used inferences.  But Belicheck, considering his history, and the whole "buck stops here" idea since he's the coach, would deserve a pretty decent penalty for sure.

He's pretty smart, though, to say what he said in his press conference, I believe, for this exact reason.  Deflect to Brady, who, besides "guilt by association" DOES NOT have any history of cheating, by saying he knew nothing about it.  (Which, BTW, its entirely possible is 100% true.  Why the hell would the coach even care how his QB likes his balls prepared?)  I could see the punishment for just being the guy in charge being a lot less than if we knew he was involved.  And short any actual video of Brady with a pump needle or even a ball boy handing him a ball and him squeezing it and shaking his head or nodding I don't see how they really have any ability to punish Brady.  So Belicheck is setting himself up for a lesser penalty than he (perhaps) would deserve.

[saevel25]

He's pretty smart, though, to say what he said in his press conference, I believe, for this exact reason.  Deflect to Brady, who, besides "guilt by association" DOES NOT have any history of cheating, by saying he knew nothing about it.  (Which, BTW, its entirely possible is 100% true.  Why the hell would the coach even care how his QB likes his balls prepared?)  I could see the punishment for just being the guy in charge being a lot less than if we knew he was involved.  And short any actual video of Brady with a pump needle or even a ball boy handing him a ball and him squeezing it and shaking his head or nodding I don't see how they really have any ability to punish Brady.  So Belicheck is setting himself up for a lesser penalty than he (perhaps) would deserve.

I would have to agree. I think a lot of people just assume the Head Coach knows everything that goes on. Given he is more like a CEO and he probably gets reports from other members on his staff. Like any organization, he delegates responsibilities to other people so he doesn't have to worry about it. Why would a head coach even want to worry about the equipment. They hire people and probably pay them a lot of money to make sure it all gets done the right way. That way he can worry about game planning and other aspects of the game.

I am not saying that Belichek didn't tell his equipment guy to tamper with the footballs. I amjust because their is proof that it happened does not mean Belichek is guilty of anything. Maybe the equipment guy is a NEP fanatic and decided to take measures into his own hand.

I think the NFL is more at fault really. If they knew about this stuff back during the season and didn't act on it, then that is a big mistake on their part.

That being said, I think in the end with out any substantial evidence to actually say who did what I think the penalty will be more broad based like a big fine or draft picks taken away.

I doubt they will suspend players with out some sort of confession by an employee who actually talked to the person who wanted this done.

[meenman]

Belicheat talked out of both side of his mouth, saying he didn't know anything about ball pressure and then saying he had his guys practice with different balls. Maybe Tommy boy is guilty, but I wouldn't want that to happen and have thousands of chowds taking their own lives.

[dsc123]

@club ho

Try to remember back to a fonder time (last Saturday) before you even knew that the league had requirements for the PSI in their balls.  It's easy to consider the idea that the procedure they used to check the game balls could sometimes be something like grabbing it.  It's also easy to see that perhaps they grab one or two or five, and assume that the rest match.

I am dedicated to debunking every possible explanation that exculpates the Patriots, here. Its definitely possible that the pin grabbed and leaked a little air out, yes.  But 2 PSI would be 16% of the air in the ball.  And then you have to assume they didn't notice.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.

If they grabbed two or five, they would have grabbed a deflated ball. If they tested only one ball, there's an 8% chance that they would have tested the fully inflated ball.

You're getting into alien territory, Barney.

I don't have much experience with testing the PSI on footballs.  But I brew and keg beer and the keg pressure is monitored by reading a gauge.  This keeps the carbonation at the right level.  My regulator goes up to 30 or 40 PSI--a far larger range than a football can withstand--and there's no chance that it would ever be off by more than a fraction of a PSI.  You don't have to look carefully or anything.  I would think the tool used by the NFL to test footballs would have a smaller range and be even easier to see, but I can't say that for a fact.  I think it would likely take an extreme level of negligence for the refs to mess this one up.

I think if you and I were on a jury together, we'd butt heads.  As mentioned above ... there is absolutely still one big question.  When did the balls become deflated?  Once the referee comes out and says that they absolutely checked the balls before the game with a gauge of some kind and they all conformed then it will probably cross over the "reasonable doubt" threshold for me and I'll concede, but until then, I think this is a glaring hole in the evidence.

What if you were on a civil jury and told the burden of proof isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt" but was only "more likely than not"?  That's the standard that usually applies outside the criminal context, and probably what the NFL is applying now.  Which way would you vote if all the evidence you have is what we know right now?

And when discussing Belicheck's knowledge/participation, lets remember not only does the buck stop with him, but he sets the example and he creates the atmosphere where his players believe things like that are okay.

[Golfingdad]

I am dedicated to debunking every possible explanation that exculpates the Patriots, here.    Its definitely possible that the pin grabbed and leaked a little air out, yes.  But 2 PSI would be 16% of the air in the ball.  And then you have to assume they didn't notice.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.  And then did it again.

If they grabbed two or five, they would have grabbed a deflated ball.   If they tested only one ball, there's an 8% chance that they would have tested the fully inflated ball.

You're getting into alien territory, Barney.

No, that's not what I meant.  Sorry, I didn't explain it well.  I mean isn't it possible that the "old" way of testing didn't even include the use of a gauge?  When I say "they grabbed them," I mean they just picked the ball up in their hands and squeezed it.  There were 11 of 12 balls that were under-inflated when tested with a gauge after the game, but to our knowledge, only one that felt under-inflated during the game.  I'm saying I think it's entirely plausible that they succeeded in "pulling a Rodgers" here because before Sunday nobody cared or paid much attention to the balls.

Oh, and considering the evidence given them several weeks prior from the Colts, if that is true, that would be monumentally idiotic of the league.  But since we're going off of history in convicting the Patriots here, we should be consistent with the NFL too.  "Monumentally idiotic" is practically Goodells motto over the course of the last couple of years, no?

What if you were on a civil jury and told the burden of proof isn't "beyond a reasonable doubt" but was only "more likely than not"?  That's the standard that usually applies outside the criminal context, and probably what the NFL is applying now.  Which way would you vote if all the evidence you have is what we know right now?

OK, fair point.  (I've never been on a civil jury so I didn't know this)  However, I'd still need the referee testimony.  If he says under oath that he checked all of the balls before the game with a gauge and they all conformed, then he gets the benefit of the doubt and I'll side with @newtogolf .  Until then, just consider me Henry Fonda over here.

And when discussing Belicheck's knowledge/participation, lets remember not only does the buck stop with him, but he sets the example and he creates the atmosphere where his players believe things like that are okay.

Oh, totally.

[Gunther]

I would have to agree. I think a lot of people just assume the Head Coach knows everything that goes on. Given he is more like a CEO and he probably gets reports from other members on his staff. Like any organization, he delegates responsibilities to other people so he doesn't have to worry about it. Why would a head coach even want to worry about the equipment. They hire people and probably pay them a lot of money to make sure it all gets done the right way. That way he can worry about game planning and other aspects of the game.  I am not saying that Belichek didn't tell his equipment guy to tamper with the footballs. I amjust because their is proof that it happened does not mean Belichek is guilty of anything. Maybe the equipment guy is a NEP fanatic and decided to take measures into his own hand.  I think the NFL is more at fault really. If they knew about this stuff back during the season and didn't act on it, then that is a big mistake on their part.  That being said, I think in the end with out any substantial evidence to actually say who did what I think the penalty will be more broad based like a big fine or draft picks taken away.  I doubt they will suspend players with out some sort of confession by an employee who actually talked to the person who wanted this done.

Bottom line is the Pats played with illegal balls. This isn't a criminal case. It's clear the balls were purposefully deflated because 1. It was 11 of 12 and 2. Indy's balls were all inflated within legal parameters. All the rest in terms of Belichek delegating, he didn't know, etc., is irrelevant. If you want to believe that someone so detail-oriented that he purposefully over-inflates balls in practice to make it harder on his players has no clue of the rules or process in terms of game day ball prep, that's your prerogative. Doesn't matter, they played with illegal balls and Belichek should pay the price. I still believe they should DQ the team from the SB but recognize that won't happen. I'd bounce him from the SB, suspend him for next year and remove 1st and 2nd round picks in '15. Harsh? Perhaps but warranted due to his recidivism.

[phan52]

Belicheat talked out of both side of his mouth, saying he didn't know anything about ball pressure and then saying he had his guys practice with different balls.

Maybe Tommy boy is guilty, but I wouldn't want that to happen and have thousands of chowds taking their own lives.

I thought it was funny how control freak Belicheat talked a full two minutes about how they prep practice balls, yet he says he hasn't discussed what they do with game balls in his entire coaching career.

Can't wait to hear what Tommy Football has to say because Coach has essentially handed it off to him. He's probably got a ball boy wired as a scapegoat.

[saevel25]

All the rest in terms of Belichek delegating, he didn't know, etc., is irrelevant. If you want to believe that someone so detail-oriented that he purposefully over-inflates balls in practice to make it harder on his players has no clue of the rules or process in terms of game day ball prep, that's your prerogative. Doesn't matter, they played with illegal balls and Belichek should pay the price.

I never said he has no clue about the game day prep. I am sure he knows all of the procedures that goes on. I am saying that it is totally possible that this went on with out him knowing. It is the way things work in business. You delegate tasks to a person you think is responsible enough to get it down correctly, and unless something comes up you only check on the guy every once in a while.

Hypothetically, w hy should Belichek pay the price for an employee who took matters in their owns hands? Heck I don't even think the equipment falls under the head coaches responsibility. The head coach is responsible for fielding a team to win games. In that he hires some one to make sure that the equipment meets all regulations and is in top condition for his players. Besides that why should Belichek have to check any of the equipment personally.

I think we are giving to much credence towards how much a head coach controls. Given he can probably fire the equipment guy or the whole equipment staff. Besides that the responsibilities of the equipment are on the guys who he hired. I am sure the NEP has a head of football equipment operations that runs that whole area so that Belichek doesn't have to.

[Gunther]

I never said he has no clue about the game day prep. I am sure he knows all of the procedures that goes on. I am saying that it is totally possible that this went on with out him knowing. It is the way things work in business. You delegate tasks to a person you think is responsible enough to get it down correctly, and unless something comes up you only check on the guy every once in a while.  [SIZE=13px]Hypothetically, w[/SIZE][SIZE=13px]hy should Belichek pay the price for an employee who took matters in their owns hands? Heck I don't even think the equipment falls under the head coaches responsibility. The head coach is responsible for fielding a team to win games. In that he hires some one to make sure that the equipment meets all regulations and is in top condition for his players. Besides that why should Belichek have to check any of the equipment personally.[/SIZE] [SIZE=13px] I think we are giving to much credence towards how much a head coach controls. Given he can probably fire the equipment guy or the whole equipment staff. Besides that the responsibilities of the equipment are on the guys who he hired. [/SIZE][SIZE=13px] I am sure the NEP has a head of football equipment operations that runs that whole area so that Belichek doesn't have to. [/SIZE]

To me it goes to history. He's been caught cheating, therefore, it is entirely plausible, hell, even likely, that he was aware this time. Had this have happened to another team, I might be willing to give the benefit of the doubt, although it would be tough considering all of the circumstantial evidence.