How to Make a Centered Hip Turn

[iacas]

I'm not going to pile on here, but I did want to quickly address a few little things.

ok, a lot of this stuff posted sounds way too analytical . the actual debate is about keeping the hips centred "NATURALLY" throughout the swing, and under no circumstance adhering to the"myth" of keeping the head still, as if you do, your upper spine will compensate by moving to the left- it depends on the depth of your chest as to how this phenomenum is accentuated  to the naked eye from an observer during a golf swing.

The way we measure things does not depend on the thickness of your chest (or the "depth") and I don't understand why you think the head must move left.

Also, as was already said, there's very little that's "natural" about the golf swing. What's "natural" to you may be completely foreign to someone else with different swing flaws, but boiled down to its essence, the golf swing is not at all a "natural" motion. I could argue that throwing is WAY more natural as animals throw things, and humans have thrown spears and things for centuries, but they have not "swung a club at the ground" as we do in a golf swing for the purposes of survival.

We love debate here, but please try to avoid just saying "the myth of keeping the head still" as if it's a known or proven fact, please.

that said, about the only "correct" way to do the motion is via the way you set up- not walls, sticks, drills or any aid device, as this method just relies on your inbuilt sense of balance and it enhances your natural swing .

I've asked about a thousand people how much athletic skill and talent it takes to set up properly, and they've all answered correctly: virtually none. The setup helps but doesn't play a major role in determining how good the swing is - the dynamic parts of the swing do a much bigger job of determining that.

the next step is to just pretend while you are in this position, to set your hands on an imaginary club .you will then find that the lower lumbar spine stays vertical, the shoulders will turn slightly to the left and your head( cervix) will move a tad right.

You can do that without rotating your shoulder line open to the target line at all.

Also, I'm not sure the gentleman to whom you're responding has a cervix…

this is the exact setup you need to actually just swing freely without worrying about "bracing". it allows your hips to swing in the barrel without any thought whatsoever.

so basically, it means that a lot of our modern day teaching only "teaches" us more ingrained misnomers.

As noted, you can still sway even with a perfect setup.

[mythbuster]

ok, i said cervix as a form of golfing slang to describe cervical spine, as i think most people here are up to speed on lingo.

when i said 'head to the left"  ,it was basically saying that your cervical spine will go to the left on a backswing , if you try and keep you head in the same place.  the thicker your chest, it is quite obvious that this motion is magnified, even if you do not measure it.

when you say that the golf swing is totally unnatural because we hit a ball on the ground, that is not exactly true. the only difference between a baseball swing and a golf swing is that we bend our spine to accommodate hitting the ball on the ground.

also, you must remember that a hockey swing is exactly the same swing as in golf, but under much more demanding  conditions to execute. but you then might say, they get an advantage with a bigger clubhead.

finally, a lot of emphasis on not trying to  sway in a backswing, actually will inhibit your natural weight shift and consequently it will have a two fold adverse effect-stress on your body and the longevity of your golfing life.

also, when you say that  the shoulders can remain on line when you place your right hand below your left at address, that is a physical impossibility, unless you allow your left scapula to disengage from your chest.

 

 

 

 

 

[boogielicious]

ok, i said cervix as a form of golfing slang to describe cervical spine, as i think most people here are up to speed on lingo.

when i said 'head to the left"  ,it was basically saying that your cervical spine will go to the left on a backswing , if you try and keep you head in the same place.  the thicker your chest, it is quite obvious that this motion is magnified, even if you do not measure it.

when you say that the golf swing is totally unnatural because we hit a ball on the ground, that is not exactly true. the only difference between a baseball swing and a golf swing is that we bend our spine to accommodate hitting the ball on the ground.

also, you must remember that a hockey swing is exactly the same swing as in golf, but under much more demanding  conditions to execute. but you then might say, they get an advantage with a bigger clubhead.

finally, a lot of emphasis on not trying to  sway in a backswing, actually will inhibit your natural weight shift and consequently it will have a two fold adverse effect-stress on your body and the longevity of your golfing life.

also, when you say that  the shoulders can remain on line when you place your right hand below your left at address, that is a physical impossibility, unless you allow your left scapula to disengage from your chest.

 

 

 

 

 

Cervix

Not even close. Most people know exactly what a cervix is.

[iacas]

ok, i said cervix as a form of golfing slang to describe cervical spine, as i think most people here are up to speed on lingo.

That's not lingo we ever use.

when i said 'head to the left"  ,it was basically saying that your cervical spine will go to the left on a backswing , if you try and keep you head in the same place.  the thicker your chest, it is quite obvious that this motion is magnified, even if you do not measure it.

It does not have to, and - please take this the right way - I don't think you understand what Key #1 is. It's really not about the head at all, but rather about making a relatively centered pivot. The word is "steady" for a reason, and the part of the head we care most about is near the neck… We don't care if the head rotates (it almost has to for any reasonable length backswing) and we don't care if it moves laterally a little bit. The head is a reference point for the URC.

When I said we don't measure the head that way, I did not say "we do not measure it." Of course we measure it… and the best players in the world move their heads, on average, 0.94 inches or something like that (the hundredths place I don't always get exactly right, but it's in the mid-0.9x range) with a mid-iron.

when you say that the golf swing is totally unnatural because we hit a ball on the ground, that is not exactly true. the only difference between a baseball swing and a golf swing is that we bend our spine to accommodate hitting the ball on the ground.

Two questions:

1. What "natural" thing is hitting a baseball like? What survival techniques, or things that cavemen did naturally, required hitting something thrown at you? Did they hunt birds by swatting them out of the air?
2. How similarly do you think hitting a baseball is versus a golf ball? Because I think they're quite different, just as I think hitting a serve in tennis is quite different than both.

also, you must remember that a hockey swing is exactly the same swing as in golf, but under much more demanding  conditions to execute. but you then might say, they get an advantage with a bigger clubhead.

It is not the same at all. Your hands are split apart, you're often moving, you're on skates, your rear foot often kicks up… This would be a horrible way to hit a golf ball:

I disagree, and honestly, few have done more studies in weight/pressure/force transfers in the golf swing than I have done the past five years. Here's one of the tips of the iceberg, so to speak:

I said they didn't have to open, and they don't. I said they could remain square (parallel to) the target line. They can. Without "disengaging your scapula." Her shoulders are parallel to the target line (and she's tipped way more than you'd want in most golf setups):

Like I said before, we encourage debate here… but @mythbuster, you've gotta bring more to it than "hockey is like golf" and "everyone knows the lingo."

[RussUK]

Cervix

Not even close. Most people know exactly what a cervix is.

Too right! 

I get this all the time at work (work for a medical firm) and its quite humerous. Same spelling but such a differnt meaning.

Cervical (lady bits)

Cervical ( top part of the spine, pronounced Cerviacal).

Can i book a cervical spreader kit please. "are you sure as that would be VERY painful!"

[iacas]

pronounced Cerviacal

Not here in the U.S.

[mvmac]

finally, a lot of emphasis on not trying to  sway in a backswing, actually will inhibit your natural weight shift and consequently it will have a two fold adverse effect-stress on your body and the longevity of your golfing life.

You can stay centered and still shift your weight/pressure, like this guy and many other great players (thread that @iacas posted). Making a centered hip turn "frees up" your hips, less stress on the back and hip joints. Swaying typically restricts the golfer's pivot."

[RussUK]

Not here in the U.S.

Strange, thats the terminology and pronunciation used for the cervical cages produced by Johnson & johnson Medical (company i work for) and they are a US based company. We have always pronounced it as cervi-a-cal  (spelt Cervical) when refering to spine. Then again you guys do remove the 2nd "I" in Aluminium 

Edited October 28, 2015 by RussUK

[boogielicious]

Strange, thats the terminology and pronunciation used for the cervical cages produced by Johnson & johnson Medical (company i work for) and they are a US based company. We have always pronounced it as cervi-a-cal  (spelt Cervical) when refering to spine. Then again you guys do remove the 2nd "I" in Aluminium 

We didn't do this. You did or actually Sir Humphrey Davy did. He proposed the existence of aluminum and named it such. Then it was changed it a while later to rhyme with the "ium" in magnesium and other elements. Source: A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson. The US just took the first version and stuck with it.

The same with the metric system. The US gets crap about not using it. But they are called, "English Units" not "American Units" are they not?

Edited October 28, 2015 by boogielicious

[RussUK]

We didn't do this. You did or actually Sir Humphrey Davy did. He proposed the existence of aluminum and named it such. Then it was changed it a while later to rhyme with the "ium" in magnesium and other elements. Source: A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson. The US just took the first version and stuck with it.

The same with the metric system. The US gets crap about not using it. But they are called, "English Units" not "American Units" are they not?

Fair enough, nice bit of history that i didnt know. Good old Humphrey eh!

[boogielicious]

Fair enough, nice bit of history that i didnt know. Good old Humphrey eh!

He didn't invent the Centered Hip Turn though. That may have been Old Tom Morris. 

[mvmac]

He didn't invent the Centered Hip Turn though. That may have been Old Tom Morris. 

Yeah, looks pretty centered 

[boogielicious]

Yeah, looks pretty centered 

Maybe that's the "Before" photo?

[Brakkus]

Decided to work on this again as I knew from my ball flight that I was losing it right particularly if I hit it harder. Still got a nice clean contact but I would hit a straight pull or a fade. Realised that I wasn't turning the trail hip behind me. My torso was turning over to the right femur.

Think Mike mentioned that it feels like a reverse tilt at first. Sorry if I'm mis quoting him,may of been someone else. Reminded me of a video Shawn Clement did where he shows quite an exaggerated hip turn. He pointed out the space it gives you on the downswing for your arms to get back down in the slot.

Hit about 100 balls today it's the straightest I've ever hit the driver. The difference between that and my previous move was night and day. No wonder I couldn't get to the inside path as my club had to come around my trail hip previously. 17 degree hybrid was also a club I could readily slice. Same results was actually drawing the ball instead of fading and slicing.

[mvmac]

Think Mike mentioned that it feels like a reverse tilt at first. Sorry if I'm mis quoting him,may of been someone else. 

Reverse hip slide potentially, reverse tilt would be something else. Not sure if I said it but yeah for someone who sways the hips to the right on the backswing, doing it properly may feel like the hips are moving/sliding towards the target on the backswing.

Hit about 100 balls today it's the straightest I've ever hit the driver. The difference between that and my previous move was night and day. No wonder I couldn't get to the inside path as my club had to come around my trail hip previously. 17 degree hybrid was also a club I could readily slice. Same results was actually drawing the ball instead of fading and slicing.

Great to hear!

[mythbuster]

sorry about my post as i sort of stuffed up with my computer.

anyway, what i wanted to say that i actually find  encouraging is that we are debating what a golf swing actually is and obviously we have differing views, but that is the definition of good debate.

look, i am not here to be popular , as i always question the status quo.

that said, a couple of replies by @iacas need a bit of focus reply.

the head obviously should turn as you swing, but i was referring to the head swaying to the right. this will be caused by you keeping your cervical centre (neck) in the same relative position, but it will turn on the axis of the cervical . you can allow your head to turn 2 ways- if you turn it independently of your cervical centre, you are not turning it at all, but if you follow the motion of the point where the cervical spine meets thoracic, it will be  totally different in appearance.in other words, if your try and keep your head from moving to the right(not turning), you will have at best a reverse pivot and at worst a totally restricted backswing.

now the next point raised is a baseball swing. throwing a spear is EXACTLY like a baseball swing, except you are in one arm mode. baseball is exactly the same as golf except for the grip. 

if a baseball player lowered his arms to hit a ball on the ground, you would have a perfect golf swing, except that the baseball player would not try and convolute his whip effect by artificially trying to keep the left arm straight.in other words, he would get a lot more distance.

finally, you say that hockey is different as they have their hands so far apart- that is nothing to do with the way they swing, but it gives them more instantaneous leverage. why do you think they swing an axe exactly the same way-it is because the axe weighs a lot and the inertia required to get the head moving is considerable . in hockey, the reason is they need instant control as a tradeoff to club speed, but regardless of either both axe and hockey, you will notice that the right hand slides up the shaft to the left hand during the follow through anyway.

anyway, at least it seems people here are prepared to debate which is encouraging.

[iacas]

the head obviously should turn as you swing, but i was referring to the head swaying to the right. this will be caused by you keeping your cervical centre (neck) in the same relative position, but it will turn on the axis of the cervical.

Not necessarily, no, and please stop simply asserting things as if they're truths without explaining what you're meaning. If the neck rotates around the spine, the head will rotate away from the target. That's not movement in our books… we consider it movement or swaying or translation if the base of the neck moves. Partly because that's the part we care about, partly because it's possible for people to kink their necks in all sorts of directions on the backswing (we've seen people do in all four directions: extension, flexion, and lateral flexion to both sides).

Yes, in such a case the head will appear to move. If that's what you're talking about, cool.

Also, as this thread is about a centered hip turn, I'd like to ask that you limit the discussion to that, or simply start a new thread if you really want to discuss "Steady Head" or any of the other things.

you can allow your head to turn 2 ways- if you turn it independently of your cervical centre, you are not turning it at all, but if you follow the motion of the point where the cervical spine meets thoracic, it will be  totally different in appearance.in other words, if your try and keep your head from moving to the right(not turning), you will have at best a reverse pivot and at worst a totally restricted backswing.

Nobody here teaches that.

now the next point raised is a baseball swing. throwing a spear is EXACTLY like a baseball swing, except you are in one arm mode. baseball is exactly the same as golf except for the grip. 

No, it isn't.

if a baseball player lowered his arms to hit a ball on the ground, you would have a perfect golf swing, except that the baseball player would not try and convolute his whip effect by artificially trying to keep the left arm straight.in other words, he would get a lot more distance.

I don't see many golfers looking like this:

Edit: Many good golfers, that is.

finally, you say that hockey is different as they have their hands so far apart- that is nothing to do with the way they swing, but it gives them more instantaneous leverage. why do you think they swing an axe exactly the same way-it is because the axe weighs a lot and the inertia required to get the head moving is considerable . in hockey, the reason is they need instant control as a tradeoff to club speed, but regardless of either both axe and hockey, you will notice that the right hand slides up the shaft to the left hand during the follow through anyway.

I disagree with both of those statements as well.

The right hand (bottom hand) does not slide up the shaft in hockey.

If either of the two pictures I've added tot his post look like golf swings to you, then I don't know what to tell you.

Also, please quote and respond and use @mentions properly.

[mvmac]

baseball is exactly the same as golf except for the grip. 

No it isn't, there are many differences.

If it's exactly the same why don't good baseball players (hitters) automatically have good golf swings?