The Official (Not Official At All) Drugs & Alcohol Thread

[Aguirre]

Heroin is a more addictive and lethal substance (which would be harmful to the user and others close to the user), and the amount used in shooting up can be dangerously close to what would lead to an overdose, if it isn't already. Drinking a glass of wine wouldn't even have a very noticeable effect. While alcohol abuse is a serious matter, I don't think any rational person would consider drinking "a fine glass of wine" to be anywhere close to that, nor would they consider drinking a single glass of wine to be akin to shooting up heroin. Can a single glass of wine eventually lead to alcohol abuse? Sure, I suppose it can, but which do you think is more likely to lead to abuse, a single glass of wine or shooting up heroin once?

Now, what makes you think heroin is no worse than drinking a glass of wine?

First, heroin kills far less people than alcohol, but we'll get past that.  I will, however, point out that the general public perception of the dangers of most narcotics is dead wrong, including the use of heroin.  This isn't an accident, as the government has continually propagated myths to justify their insane crusade.

But, you're already leaping to conclusions with that first sentence.  Unless you can prove that heroin use inevitably leads to more danger to people around the user (which you can't) your conclusion that it deserves to be a banned substance while wine does not is already on thin ice.  Young black teenagers commit violent crime at a higher rate than any other demographic group.  Should we, therefore, lock up all black teenagers?  Of course not, says any sane person who isn't wearing a white hood.  The same applies to heroin users.  Simply because they may be more likely to commit crimes (this is debatable, BTW, given the prevalence of drunk driving) does not mean that heroin should be banned, while wine is not.  Certainly you are aware of the drunk who beats his wife and kids?

To answer your final question, it's a question of deontological ethics, although I could make a case using consequential ethics as well.  Is the act, in and of itself, violating the rights of another human being?  Note: Not likely, not more than likely, but does the act itself directly violate the rights of another or threaten (again, directly, not increase the chances of said threat, etc) individual?  It does not.  Today, hundreds of thousands of Americans shot up heroin, and didn't harm another individual.  We can stretch this to all kinds of actions.  The mere act of drinking a glass of wine does not mean the person will get intoxicated and drive.  The mere act of owning a gun does not mean that person will shoot up a school, etc.

[Aguirre]

I'll try and give this a shot as well ...

I'm gonna say supply and demand.  Demand creates the need for supply and to get or create heroin, I'm going to assume there are bad people down there in SA doing bad things.  Am I right??  (Nope, I'm not.  Apparently, Afghanistan is the World's largest producer of Heroin.  Go figure.  Also, Southeast Asia, Mexico and Colombia.  OK, not totally wrong ;))  Anyways, production and trafficking leads to some shady things happening, that were it not for the demand, wouldn't be happening.

Wine, on the other hand, is just created by old dudes growing grapes on a farm.  No harm there.

I don't know, just thought I'd give it a try. ;)

I will point out the massive increase in violence during prohibition.  It's not the substance, it's relegating the industry to the black market.  Eliminate the black market, you eliminate the cartels.

[Golfingdad]

I will point out the massive increase in violence during prohibition.  It's not the substance, it's relegating the industry to the black market.  Eliminate the black market, you eliminate the cartels.

Yeah I thought about that.  Gotta say, I am pretty curious to see what would happen if it was all made legal.

[RJH999]

Yeah I thought about that.  Gotta say, I am pretty curious to see what would happen if it was all made legal.

Charlie Sheen would die in about six seconds.

[Golfingdad]

Charlie Sheen would die in about six seconds.

LOL ... you think he's holding back right now because of laws??

[RJH999]

LOL ... you think he's holding back right now because of laws?? :-P

Yeah but having them all in the same room legally. He'd be like that fat kid in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[Aguirre]

Yeah I thought about that.  Gotta say, I am pretty curious to see what would happen if it was all made legal.

It's been done, here and now in the modern age.  Not in a sense that you can walk into a convenience store and buy whatever narcotic you like, but the effects have been positive.  If you treat addiction as a health problem the usage rates tend to drop, as well as ancillary crime related to drug use.

Portugal, Netherlands, Norway, Argentina.  Others that I cannot recall off the top of my head.

[RJH999]

It's been done, here and now in the modern age.  Not in a sense that you can walk into a convenience store and buy whatever narcotic you like, but the effects have been positive.  If you treat addiction as a health problem the usage rates tend to drop, as well as ancillary crime related to drug use. Portugal, Netherlands, Norway, Argentina.  Others that I cannot recall off the top of my head.

Didn't Czechoslovakia do something similar? Edit: I suppose it was just the Czech Republic.

[Aguirre]

I'm not a Republican or Democrat because please.  What an awful choice.  But drug liberalization isn't just supported by left-wing types, but also paleo-conservatives (the real conservatives before the GOP lost their collective mind).  And this is where we are headed.  The world is becoming ever more free every year.  Capitalism is stronger than it has ever been (even if we are regressing a bit in the USA), and personal freedoms are expanding.  Whether it's legalizing drugs, prostitution, allowing gay marriage, etc, it's happening.  Don't be 80 years old and feel like some dope who in 1964 was still screaming about the separation of races.

[Aguirre]

Didn't Czechoslovakia do something similar?

Edit: I suppose it was just the Czech Republic.

Yes, they did.  In fact, that's one of the better known examples.  I just forgot, good catch.

[zipazoid]

@Aguirre - I have to disagree with the heroin no worse than a glass of wine analogy as I think that's a bit, no wait, a lot over the top.

You were making your point just fine that the War on Drugs has been an abysmal failure without adding that.

For 40+ years we have had this "War" & for all those billions of dollars spent, getting drugs is still ridiculously easy. You'd think that by now they would have been removed from American society, or extremely rare/hard to find.

I live in Miami. I can, right now at 9am on a Wednesday morning, go 3 blocks from here & with the nod of a head & one word, score crack. Not saying I would, just saying I can.

And if someone counters with "Well that's Miami," I can tell you the same situation holds in the other cities I've lived in - Orlando, West Palm Beach, etc.

The War on Drugs has failed. Time for a new strategy.

[Ernest Jones]

@Aguirre - I have to disagree with the heroin no worse than a glass of wine analogy as I think that's a bit, no wait, a lot over the top.

You were making your point just fine that the War on Drugs has been an abysmal failure without adding that.

For 40+ years we have had this "War" & for all those billions of dollars spent, getting drugs is still ridiculously easy. You'd think that by now they would have been removed from American society, or extremely rare/hard to find.

I live in Miami. I can, right now at 9am on a Wednesday morning, go 3 blocks from here & with the nod of a head & one word, score crack. Not saying I would, just saying I can.

And if someone counters with "Well that's Miami," I can tell you the same situation holds in the other cities I've lived in - Orlando, West Palm Beach, etc.

The War on Drugs has failed. Time for a new strategy.

Right, and channel all of those ridiculous sums of money to education and treatment and you'll a real impact.

[Golfingdad]

And if someone counters with "Well that's Miami," I can tell you the same situation holds in the other cities I've lived in - Orlando, West Palm Beach, etc.

Well, that's Florida.

[Ernest Jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipazoid

And if someone counters with "Well that's Miami," I can tell you the same situation holds in the other cities I've lived in - Orlando, West Palm Beach, etc.

Well, that's Florida.

Land of perpetual LCP and SOLLOG. They need the drugs.

[zipazoid]

Land of perpetual LCP and SOLLOG. They need the drugs.

Okay I'll bite. What does LCP & SOLLOG mean?

BTW, I see you're from Canada. We got a lot of Canadians down here in the winter. We have a standard joke, in fact -

What's the difference between a Canadian & a canoe?

A canoe tips.

[Ernest Jones]

Okay I'll bite. What does LCP & SOLLOG mean?

BTW, I see you're from Canada. We got a lot of Canadians down here in the winter. We have a standard joke, in fact -

What's the difference between a Canadian & a canoe?

A canoe tips.

Lift, Clean and Place.

Son of Light, Light of God. Cannot be adequately explained, must be experienced, can't remember his user name or I'd link. Needless to say, you missed some pretty epic happenings on here during your absence.

BTW, I am a chronic over tipper, let's not get into generalizing here based on nationalities. The US of A tends to get beat up pretty bad in those "discussions".

[zipazoid]

BTW, I am a chronic over tipper, let's not get into generalizing here based on nationalities. The US of A tends to get beat up pretty bad in those "discussions".

It's a joke. Did I mention that Canadians are overly sensitive too?

[Ernest Jones]

It's a joke.

Duh.

Just thought I'd nip it in the bud, Bubba.