My Swing (FireDragon76)

[FireDragon76]

I've been practicing for only a few months.  I spent a few weeks a decade ago on a driving range, then I've been practicing a few times a week since early October.

This video is from a few weeks ago when I was still having trouble hitting balls off the deck, so the balls are all on tees.  I'm using an old 5 iron blade that used to belong to my dad.

[mvmac]

May look a little complicated but I'll explain. To make a pivot with the head remaining steady the shoulders turn about 90 degrees to the address inclination (the amount you're bent over at address). Those are the green lines. Red lines show how much the head has moved and the orange line illustrates your shoulder inclination at the top of the backswing. You would want to see the orange line match the green line.

Then the head has to move down and comes back up and around again. The head movement is a big issue you have to address and a big part of the reason you have back pain.

To change this I would:

- Lower the eyes, chin is too high,

- Turn both feet out at address

- Feel the left side bend on the backswing. Left shoulder will feel like it goes down.

- Grip looks like it's in the palm of the left hand, fix that.

Some resources for you:

[FireDragon76]

Quote:

Then the head has to move down and comes back up and around again. The head movement is a big issue you have to address and a big part of the reason you have back pain.

I'm not sure I'm understanding this.  Can you elaborate exactly how head movement causes problems with the back?  I'm trying to end up in an upright stance, not a backward curved C.   Perhaps I'm exaggerating the followthrough, however.

Looking at the top of the backswing is helpful.   I was so focused on looking at what my arms were doing I missed my shoulder altogether.   I'm sure I have some shoulder issues- whether they are something that I should see a doctor about... I don't know.  My left shoulder pops a lot and I've realized for years I've restricted my left arms usage a lot.   In the past two weeks I've started using a weight machine a few times a week and trying to work on shoulder and trapezius excercises.

[mvmac]

I'm not sure I'm understanding this.  Can you elaborate exactly how head movement causes problems with the back?  I'm trying to end up in an upright stance, not a backward curved C.   Perhaps I'm exaggerating the followthrough, however.

It's going to be easier on the back to turn back and through maintaining your inclination than moving up then down suddenly and then up again.

Have you even done an upward dog yoga position? If you have and felt any pain, all you have to do is squeeze your butt and that takes the stress out of your lower back. Similar idea to what's happening here. You "flex" the spine down on the downswing then twist to an upright position in the followthrough. The golfer in the right pic has maintained his inclination but his hips are pushed forward, glutes are engaged. No "twisting" or sudden inclination changes.

Looking at the top of the backswing is helpful.   I was so focused on looking at what my arms were doing I missed my shoulder altogether.   I'm sure I have some shoulder issues- whether they are something that I should see a doctor about... I don't know.  My left shoulder pops a lot and I've realized for years I've restricted my left arms usage a lot.   In the past two weeks I've started using a weight machine a few times a week and trying to work on shoulder and trapezius excercises.

If I was you I would spend 5-10 minutes a day doing the stick drill and making practice backswings with your head up against a wall. Obviously making sure your head stays against the wall.

You can even do the stick drill/wall drill for the downswing. Same idea, the head will stay on the wall into the followthrough. It'll end up being more of a 3/4 followthrough.

[FireDragon76]

What do you think about restricting the backswing?   I went to the driving range today and tried just doing 1/2 swings and I seemed to do a lot better- the distance was about the same but the accuracy and control was a lot better.   My backswing also seemed  slower and smoother.

[mvmac]

What do you think about restricting the backswing?   I went to the driving range today and tried just doing 1/2 swings and I seemed to do a lot better- the distance was about the same but the accuracy and control was a lot better.   My backswing also seemed  slower and smoother.

Whether it's restricted or a 1/2 backswing, you're going to have to turn your body in a way that keeps your head steady. To do that your shoulders have to turn steeper, left shoulder moving down longer. Like I illustrated in the pictures.

Don't try to band aid your swing. Making these changes will take some time and require your attention to what you're doing but you can certainly make it better and get to the point of playing decent golf.

You're going to make much more progress working on the pieces I've described than trying to take short cuts. I took the time to look at your swing and gave you the information you need to change the picture and improve your ball striking.

[FireDragon76]

Looking back over this... you mentioned you thought my head is too high, and I have a possible explanation for that.  This might be a problem because I have esotropia and nystagmus, and in my case it creates something called v-syndrome: my binocular vision is best when my eyes are kept lower, so for me that posture produces a restful gaze on the ball (my desk setup is positioned so I'm looking down slightly into a monitor, for instance... this actually isn't that unusual, but in my case, the further up the objects go, the worse my vision).

[boogielicious]

Looking back over this... you mentioned you thought my head is too high, and I have a possible explanation for that.  This might be a problem because I have esotropia and nystagmus, and in my case it creates something called v-syndrome: my binocular vision is best when my eyes are kept lower, so for me that posture produces a restful gaze on the ball (my desk setup is positioned so I'm looking down slightly into a monitor, for instance... this actually isn't that unusual, but in my case, the further up the objects go, the worse my vision).

I would suggest working in front of a mirror when you can.  You can still have your eyes looking more down while still creating a proper pivot.  The shoulder pitch with driveway sticks is a good drill to practice in front of the mirror.  You can also do it with your club.  It will take a while to correct the shallow shoulder turn, but if you stick with the drills, you will have it in a few weeks.

[iacas]

@FireDragon76 , fwiw, there's no shame or fault in saying "I don't understand what you're saying" right now. I could be wrong, but you seem very new to golf, while we're a bit accustomed to talking at a bit higher level (and by "higher" level I just mean using vocabulary and such with which you may not yet be familiar - there's really nothing "higher" about it, just different).

Do you understand what @mvmac and others are saying?

[FireDragon76]

Yes, I think I understand what is being said.   It looks like I've got an up and down and back and forth motion going on in my swing -   it's true I'm not ending up in a reverse C, but my lower back is probably twisting more than I think it does.  It also looks like my neck is moving around a lot, it could explain some of the neck pain I've occasionally delt with.

I'm going to go back to the basics and work in front of a mirror, and revert to the Kirk Junge swing.   I went to the driving range yesterday and focused mostly on keeping the club on plane, and I improved my ball contact a great deal (very little whiffing), but I'm starting to develop serious hooking.

I will post more videos soon.

[iacas]

Yes, I think I understand what is being said.   It looks like I've got an up and down and back and forth motion going on in my swing -   it's true I'm not ending up in a reverse C, but my lower back is probably twisting more than I think it does.  It also looks like my neck is moving around a lot, it could explain some of the neck pain I've occasionally delt with.

I'm going to go back to the basics and work in front of a mirror, and revert to the Kirk Junge swing.   I went to the driving range yesterday and focused mostly on keeping the club on plane, and I improved my ball contact a great deal (very little whiffing), but I'm starting to develop serious hooking.

I will post more videos soon.

Uhµ… I think that's a mistake, but it's a free country… Good luck. Keep updating the thread with your progress. You can always ignore any advice you get here.

We teach that too… as a drill.

[FireDragon76]

Uhµ… I think that's a mistake, but it's a free country… Good luck. Keep updating the thread with your progress. You can always ignore any advice you get here.

I'm open to hearing all sorts of opinions on what you would think is the best swing for a particular individual.

I was learning Kirk's Single Plane Swing, not the Minimal Single Plane swing.  He does state on his youtube channel in a few places that the minimalist setup has some resemblance to the Stack and Tilt pattern.

This is his regular Moe Norman Single Plane swing, the one I started out learning

I went with this swing because of the promise of accuracy.  When I started trying to play golf over a decade ago, despite being in much better shape physically, I had a horrible time hitting the ball consistently straight and I gave up after a few weeks in frustration.   Its true I didn't have any pro teaching me, however I read a few books (which were horribly technical) and had my dad show me a few basics. When I decided I wanted to play golf again, I needed something I could easily learn and not be frustrated with.   Kirk's swing teaching delivered on that part - I started hitting much better right away.

However, I started noticing some back soreness that got worse the more I practiced.  Whether its due to me being out of shape or to the swing, I don't pretend to know.  I figured it might be due to keeping the ball farther away.  So I tried to go with a more conventional swing.  I even tried reading and practicing the Stack and Tilt pattern.  But under real swing conditions, my swing breaks down, particularly the shoulder action.  That is the sample video I showed (not the Moe Norman swing).

I'm fairly certain I have some issues with range of motion in my left shoulder.  I can raise up my right hand behind my back and touch my left hand behind my back, but I cannot do the same with the left hand raised up behind my back- the fingers aren't even close to touching    My left shoulder also feels weaker when I raise up my arm above my head.  I also have been told I have sacroilitis, inflammation around the sacrum and spine, and it was causing sciatic nerve pain in my legs.  I did physical therapy for that months ago but I don't think it was completely cured.

I've also considered researching Don Trahan's swing teaching because he seems very aware of the spine and his swing developed specifically in response to his own back problems.    After further research, I consider the Stack and Tilt too athletic and potentially hard on the lumbar spine because of the amount of lateral movement of the pelvis  (as noted in this review: http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm )

[iacas]

I've also considered researching Don Trahan's swing teaching because he seems very aware of the spine and his swing developed specifically in response to his own back problems.    After further research, I consider the Stack and Tilt too athletic and potentially hard on the lumbar because of the amount of lateral movement of the pelvis  (as noted in this review:  http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm )

I'll reply more later, if I have a chance, but the owner of that site (Jeff Mann) is a known kook who misunderstands basic things, fails to update his review when these errors are pointed out to him, and several other things. I cannot overstate how far off base he has been on a great many occasions.

I also don't know why you've brought up S&T; (unless it's just because this Kirk guy mentioned it).

Read this: . Consider the idea that anyone who teaches "one swing" is someone of whom I'm skeptical of to begin with. That's part of the beauty of 5SK® - it focuses on the commonalities of the game's best players, not making everyone swing the same way.

I'm fairly certain I have some issues with range of motion in my left shoulder.  I can raise up my right hand behind my back and touch my left hand behind my back, but I cannot do the same with the left hand raised up behind my back- the fingers aren't even close to touching.

The golf swing doesn't involve your arms moving or swinging behind your back.

[jamo]

I'm open to hearing all sorts of opinions on what you would think is the best swing for a particular individual. I was learning Kirk's Single Plane Swing, not the Minimal Single Plane swing.  He does state on his youtube channel in a few places that the minimalist setup has some resemblance to the Stack and Tilt pattern. This is his regular Moe Norman Single Plane swing, the one I started out learning

What I think you'll find is that most modern teachers teach a relatively centered pivot and a one-plane swing (that is, the shoulders and club are parallel at the top of the backswing). And they do that without the extreme early extension (i.e. goat humping) of the Norman swing or Kirk's swing. [quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/0_30#post_1075798"]I went with this swing because of the promise of accuracy.  [/quote] One of the major problems with the Moe Norman-style swing is that you need to make incredibly consistent contact to be very accurate. You'll still have to deal with heel and toe misses (especially with arms extended like that), and, because the swing is very level, it can lead to hitting the ball fat and thin. You can't swing down with the Norman swing, so you lose quite a bit of power and spin. Norman swings tend to solve the problem of the club face being open/closed, but they don't solve the swing path problem (which is much more prevalent). [quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/0_30#post_1075798"]When I started trying to play golf over a decade ago, despite being in much better shape physically, I had a horrible time hitting the ball consistently straight and I gave up after a few weeks in frustration.   Its true I didn't have any pro teaching me, however I read a few books (which were horribly technical) and had my dad show me a few basics. When I decided I wanted to play golf again, I needed something I could easily learn and not be frustrated with.   Kirk's swing teaching delivered on that part - I started hitting much better right away.  However, I started noticing some back soreness that got worse the more I practiced.  Whether its due to me being out of shape or to the swing, I don't pretend to know.  I figured it might be due to keeping the ball farther away.  So I tried to go with a more conventional swing.  I even tried reading and practicing the Stack and Tilt pattern.  But under real swing conditions, my swing breaks down, particularly the shoulder action.  That is the sample video I showed (not the Moe Norman swing).[/quote] This is what I would do to start out: make half swings. Scratch that. Less than half swings. Set up in a good impact position (weight forward, solid left wrist, shaft lean, etc.) with a 6-iron, then pull the club back to A2 and swing through. Do that, as slow as you have to do it, until you CAN'T hit a bad one. Doesn't matter if it goes 20 yards. Then swing back to A2.5 and do the same thing. Doesn't matter if you have to swing at 20%; slowly start increasing until you can make full-speed half swings and still hit the ball solid. Keep building - swing to A3 until you can't miss. It'll take a while, but that's a great way to teach yourself what good impact feels like. [quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/0_30#post_1075798"] I'm fairly certain I have some issues with range of motion in my left shoulder. I can raise up my right hand behind my back and touch my left hand behind my back, but I cannot do the same with the left hand raised up behind my back- the fingers aren't even close to touching My left shoulder also feels weaker when I raise up my arm above my head.  I also have been told I have sacroilitis, inflammation around the sacrum and spine, and it was causing sciatic nerve pain in my legs.  I did physical therapy for that months ago but I don't think it was completely cured.[/quote] FWIW, I can't do that with either arm. Not even close with my left arm going over. [quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/0_30#post_1075798"]I've also considered researching Don Trahan's swing teaching because he seems very aware of the spine and his swing developed specifically in response to his own back problems.    After further research, I consider the Stack and Tilt too athletic and potentially hard on the lumbar spine because of the amount of lateral movement of the pelvis  (as noted in this review:  [URL=http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm]http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm[/URL] ) [/quote] As Erik alluded to, I wouldn't put must stock at all into Jeff Mann. In my experience dealing with him on other forums, he tends get stuck in his ways. He's open to learning about many methods, but only so he can relate them to his previous opinions (which is why you'll see him use the same dozen images in pretty much every page). He tends to overlook what players actually do, and puts way to much stock in both what they say they do and the way they pose in magazines. He tends to get lost in the outliers ("well, a few PGA pros do this") while overlooking the majority. On a slightly different note, he's endlessly argumentative, loves to nitpick small lines of what you say while overlooking the main theme of a statement, and has been kicked off nearly every golf forum I've seen him pop up on.

[mvmac]

I'm open to hearing all sorts of opinions on what you would think is the best swing for a particular individual.

Already did but you didn't seem to like it

http://thesandtrap.com/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76#post_1072427

I also agree and like what @jamo posted

[Ernest Jones]

@FireDragon76 you're getting some great advice here! I really like @jamo 's advice of working on contact with partial swings. I find doing this as a drill helps a ton.

Here's what I'm doing a lot of these days:

It's a little easier to maintain a steady head and make a solid turn with a smaller swing, then, as Jamo said, build it up from there. Takes time and dedication and jumping from one easy-fix method to another will just will just keep you stuck in neutral.

[Hammer 4]

@FireDragon76 you're getting some great advice here! I really like @jamo's advice of working on contact with partial swings. I find doing this as a drill helps a ton.

Here's what I'm doing a lot of these days:

It's a little easier to maintain a steady head and make a solid turn with a smaller swing, then, as Jamo said, build it up from there. Takes time and dedication and jumping from one easy-fix method to another will just will just keep you stuck in neutral.

This is a Great drill. Mike gave this drill last May, still doing them. Pretty hard at first. And the key is to swing SLOW. My first time trying this drill at the range resulted in me hitting about 2 really good, that's out of 12 balls.... But, as you do this drill, you do get better, as evidenced by EJ's video. BTW, if, wait..when my swing goes south, this is the drill I use to get it back on track.

[FireDragon76]

What I think you'll find is that most modern teachers teach a relatively centered pivot and a one-plane swing (that is, the shoulders and club are parallel at the top of the backswing). And they do that without the extreme early extension (i.e. goat humping) of the Norman swing or Kirk's swing.

One of the major problems with the Moe Norman-style swing is that you need to make incredibly consistent contact to be very accurate. You'll still have to deal with heel and toe misses (especially with arms extended like that), and, because the swing is very level, it can lead to hitting the ball fat and thin. You can't swing down with the Norman swing, so you lose quite a bit of power and spin.

I haven't found fat or thin shots to be a big problem with the Moe swing, despite the swing being flatter.   On the contrary, fat and thin shots have been my experience trying to learn a more conventional swing.   I believe this reduction in fat and thin shots, and the overall accuracy, is due to the extension of the arms at setup onto a plane that is close to the plane at impact.  It just makes for a swing less dependent on correct timing.   I whiff almost no balls trying to swing like Moe.  My only concern is whether this swing is biomechanically sound, if there isn't something better out there that puts less stress on the lower back.

There is so much confusion around the term "Single-Plane Swing", probably due to the work of Jim Hardy.  I read his Plane Truth for Golfers and his book just read like so much mystified hokum, seeing differences in swings of professionals that were very subtle, to say the least.  I like The Laws of the Golf Swing much better, actually making better sense biomechanically.

I do agree there is no "one great swing" for everyone, everybody has different body types.  I have a genetic background  with lots of short, squat individuals, and I have short legs, just average flexibility, limited depth perception, and a prematurely aging body- there's no way I could swing like the average pro golfer.  Which is why I tend to be less interested in emulating their swings.