The Julia Plan: A 5 Handicap in 5 Years

[turtleback]

Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but that's me on the Youtube page. The photo in the avatar on my Youtube page was taken 7 years ago when I was 55. I've never changed it. But that's me in the videos I posted in the MySwing forum. I still look quite young for my age. Do not underestimate my intelligence. Of course speed is an ingredient in shooting low scores, but what is not part of this thread is the pissing contest that seems to have started. What I'm saying is that if you do not believe me about my SS that your problem not mine.

I've enjoyed reading a number of your posts on a variety of topics here and it seems obvious to me that you are a serious golfer.  And I think you have not been treated as kindly as you should have been in this thread and the issue that has been seized upon is the swing speed.

The thing is that they are correct that your stated swing speed is pretty implausible (but not impossible) given what you have told us about yourself.  You had indicated that you learned that swing speed when you were fitted for your driver.  My question is whether you have ever had it measured elsewhere - kind of a second opinion.  Because the sad fact is that not all launch monitors are calibrated correctly.  And in some cases, places that sell clubs sometimes tweak their monitors so as to produce better digital results in the store with the new club than the player actually experiences out on the course with his old clubs.

So I think your statement of your club speed was made in completely good faith, but I wonder if your have been misled.  Both Phil and Erik are far more knowledgeable about the golf swing than you or I am and so I think it is likely that they are correct from a purely golf swing point of view, although I think their delivery has been, shall we say, less than ideal.

[iacas]

To re-iterate something from above, and to get this back to a more productive conversation…

Julia, please find an accurate means of measuring your driver clubhead speed, or at least accurately measuring the distances you hit your 6I and driver (more clubs too if possible).

As @turtleback said "fittings" are not the time to have it measured accurately. Why? I assure you it's not so that we can have a pissing contest over it - It quite literally changes how and what you should practice. As I said above, if you swing 74 you'd work on very different things (and play differently too) than if you swing 84 or 94. If you swing 74 (I doubt you do), you'd probably have <1% chance of getting down to a 5.

I'll say the italicized part again: distance is such an important piece that knowing that information changes how and what you should practice and play.

Who's your instructor, and what specifically are you working on right now? Where do you practice?

[DrvFrShow]

@iacas see your PM

My swing speed was clocked on a Foresight Launch Monitor. Now when I started I warmed up hitting a few balls with a 7 iron, then moved to the driver. The first few hits with the driver were around 85 mph. When I got warmed up, that's when I was hitting 94. That's my max speed . Not average speed. If I'm at the range, and I've hit around 50 balls, and I take out my driver, I'm really warmed up and I can cut loose with it then. But straight out of the bag first thing in the morning, of course not. Yes, I worked up a sweat in the driver fitting.

I intend to have the shaft replaced on my 2014 Big Bertha around March. I will go to a facility that has a trackman then for the shaft fitting. Unfortunately those are quite a drive from where I live, but since the shaft is basically the club, it will be worth the time.

[Lihu]

@iacas see your PM

My swing speed was clocked on a Foresight Launch Monitor. Now when I started I warmed up hitting a few balls with a 7 iron, then moved to the driver. The first few hits with the driver were around 85 mph. When I got warmed up, that's when I was hitting 94. That's my max speed. Not average speed. If I'm at the range, and I've hit around 50 balls, and I take out my driver, I'm really warmed up and I can cut loose with it then. But straight out of the bag first thing in the morning, of course not. Yes, I worked up a sweat in the driver fitting.

I intend to have the shaft replaced on my 2014 Big Bertha around March. I will go to a facility that has a trackman then for the shaft fitting. Unfortunately those are quite a drive from where I live, but since the shaft is basically the club, it will be worth the time.

That makes some sense. 85mph is still pretty good, and should get you around 210 yard drives with good contact.

[DrvFrShow]

So with the max being 94, I see that as the potential since I haven't really practiced that much hitting my driver. With conditioning over the winter, and with improved technique and confidence, maybe I could see a +5 mph improvement over 85?

But what also needs to happen is control. All the speed in the world here isn't going to help me unless I get some control. That's why my handicap isn't lower than it is. What good is being 230 yds out if it's under a bush? Or if you have to hit a knock down from under a tree? Well now that I can hit a knock down for more than 30 yds

[Lihu]

So with the max being 94, I see that as the potential since I haven't really practiced that much hitting my driver. With conditioning over the winter, and with improved technique and confidence, maybe I could see a +5 mph improvement over 85?

But what also needs to happen is control. All the speed in the world here isn't going to help me unless I get some control. That's why my handicap isn't lower than it is. What good is being 230 yds out if it's under a bush? Or if you have to hit a knock down from under a tree? Well now that I can hit a knock down for more than 30 yds

I would worry about getting figuring out what is causing you pain in your swing and fixing that.

At 85 mph, you already have the SS you need to get to a female scratch golfer with an average drive in the 210 range with good contact.

[billchao]

But what also needs to happen is control. All the speed in the world here isn't going to help me unless I get some control. That's why my handicap isn't lower than it is. What good is being 230 yds out if it's under a bush? Or if you have to hit a knock down from under a tree? Well now that I can hit a knock down for more than 30 yds

I agree. Speed is an advantage, but only if you can take advantage of it. Unfortunately, all your misses will be magnified because you swing faster. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, but once you get that control it will be your biggest asset.

If you're working with a good instructor who knows their stuff and you trust them, stick with it and you'll get there. You seem pretty dedicated so I believe you'll definitely put in the proper amount and type of work. That's most of the battle right there, really.

[DrvFrShow]

I agree. Speed is an advantage, but only if you can take advantage of it. Unfortunately, all your misses will be magnified because you swing faster. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, but once you get that control it will be your biggest asset.

If you're working with a good instructor who knows their stuff and you trust them, stick with it and you'll get there. You seem pretty dedicated so I believe you'll definitely put in the proper amount and type of work. That's most of the battle right there, really.

Exactly. When it all comes together I'm getting pars. If there's one miss on a hole, and it's not bad, it's a bogey. If it's a bad miss, it's a double. If I start playing "military golf," it can get ugly in a hurry and I'm looking at a 7 or 8. At least it's not "hunter golf" as often anymore.

[Spitfisher]

So with the max being 94, I see that as the potential since I haven't really practiced that much hitting my driver. With conditioning over the winter, and with improved technique and confidence, maybe I could see a +5 mph improvement over 85? But what also needs to happen is control. All the speed in the world here isn't going to help me unless I get some control. That's why my handicap isn't lower than it is. What good is being 230 yds out if it's under a bush? Or if you have to hit a knock down from under a tree? Well now that I can hit a knock down for more than 30 yds

What is your currents loft of the driver head, ( stamped on it)? what is the driver head set at - if applicable? What is the shaft weight, usually indicated as 47, 50, 55, 60 XX, etc sometimes labeled specifically and in other instances part of the shaft model. Is the driver a ladies driver or a mens? What flex is the driver shaft? The reason for the questions is simple. At 85-90 mph you can benefit from a high lofted driver such as 12,13 and even 14 degrees. However you may have the 10.5 degree model head, set on high loft ( close to a 12 deg) the face being closed some. Shaft, shaft flex and shaft weight can also straighten a drive = greater distance or it may engage distance killing side spin or spin in general. . A lighter weight shaft can also give you a slight increased of head speed.

[DrvFrShow]

It's a men's Big Bertha: 10.5 degree set + 2 degrees for 12.5 degrees with the stock Fubuki Z50 - R flex shaft; 50g shaft. Torque 5 degree. It's set to draw on the shaft, and the slider on the head is set neutral.

The Razr Fit I've been playing around with is a men's 11.5 degree with a stock Aldila RIP'd NV 60 - R flex shaft. 60g Torque 4.4. It's set to draw on the shaft. No slider. (Newer model of the shaft is in 65g)

I figure I have no business hitting anything less than 11.5 unless I'm scoring an average SS in the mid-upper 90s. It just makes sense to me.

Because of the distance I can hit, the pro I'm working with sees potential - more than I do, TBH. I'd be happy shooting around 82-83 and call it a day because I think my physical issues are going to limit me there. That will give me the occasional round in the upper 70s and the occasional bum round in the upper 80s - low 90s - the one where we say "I hate this game." We know how that goes. But he thinks single digits, so this plan, and the physical issue is why the :lol: after. But I'll give it a shot, pardon the pun.

And hey, I shot my handicap in the rain and wind for my last round this year, and never had played in rain and wind before. But I was laughing with the low HC player in the club in my foursome. I asked her if this was going to be a par, double, par, triple, par, double round. Because that's the way it was going.

[Spitfisher]

I'd stay with this one if I were you.....

It's a men's Big Bertha: 10.5 degree set + 2 degrees for 12.5 degrees with the stock Fubuki Z50 - R flex shaft; 50g shaft. Torque 5 degree. It's set to draw on the shaft, and the slider on the head is set neutral.

[Fourputt]

Well here is my uneducated (aside from playing golf for 40 years) addition to this thread.

Julia, I applaud your plan and your work ethic.  I couldn't keep to that plan either mentally or physically.  My entire golfing life was dedicated to playing.  I may have taken 3 lessons total during that period.  Practice time on the range was tedious and unproductive, so I rarely did it (and working up to 60 hour weeks, I really didn't have time to practice and play, and I preferred playing).  I spent many hours at the chipping and pitching greens of a couple of courses near where I lived.  Until I retired at age 60, I averaged 35-40 rounds per year, about one per week during the playing season in Colorado.

At my best I reached a 9.6 index, and that was when I was in my mid 40's.  I stayed in the 10-12 handicap range for some 15 years, then as I got into my mid to late 50's, I started to lose distance with the driver.  For whatever reason, I had never been as long as my friends with my irons, but always was long with the driver.

The loss of distance started to affect my scoring, but that was nothing compared to the physical ailments that cropped up - a broken bone in my left wrist, which occurred while playing golf; surgery on my right elbow, another golf injury; an umbilical hernia which required surgical repair; two arthritic knees, ankles, and other joints that are protesting more as I get closer to 70.

I will be 68 in less than a month.  5 years ago I could still shoot the odd round in the 70's - one day even beat the head pro (who was also my boss at the time) with a 76 .  Now I struggle to shoot 85 on an easy course.  I don't want to discourage you, but your goal may be a bit lofty.  If you reach a 10 handicap, you should be thrilled - I know that I would be at this point in my life.  Better than that and I will give you a standing ovation.

I admire your chutzpah, and wish you the best of luck with your adventure.

[DrvFrShow]

The thing to remember is that I'm playing the red tees.

Course A Slope 113 - my home course:

Avg par 3: 148 yds

Avg par 4: 296 yds

Avg par 5: 431 yds

Course B Slope 121 - I play this and can score the same or better on it as I do my home course. For some reason the configuration favors my game. More left doglegs and I tend to hit a draw.

Avg par 3: 125 yds

Avg par 4: 332 yds

Avg par 5: 444 yds

Let's for the sake of argument say I'm hitting a shorter drive because I'm not taking a full back swing and playing a bit more conservatively on the course with my driver or playing a fairway off the tee. The difference between these two courses is hitting a gap wedge to the green on my home course vs. hitting a 9 or 8 iron on Course B. It's the same swing; similar chances of landing on the green and if I do, I'll end up with a 20+ footer that I'll have to lag anyway unless I'm really lucky. If I don't I'll be chipping up and down, and hope I make my chip to within 4 feet, and those, according to Phil M., aren't automatic for anyone. Hopefully I didn't hit a bad shot on the way in.

Par 3s on Course B are easier than the same on my home course. That's a fact. I'm pretty much guaranteed a par or at worst a bogey on 3 of them. The last one is tough - small green and you're getting tired. On my home course there is only one par 3 under 148 yds. and the greens are pretty nasty on two of them - everyone has trouble even the low handicappers.

The par 5s are not a wash. Home course is flatter, but has water. Course B has a sidehill like on one fairway, and a down and up approach on one of them with water at the bottom - careful with that drive.

I think that's why people think the single digit HC is possible. It's the distance I hit my drive vs the hole lengths I'm playing. Now to get things under control.

[Lihu]

The thing to remember is that I'm playing the red tees.

I think that's why people think the single digit HC is possible. It's the distance I hit my drive vs the hole lengths I'm playing. Now to get things under control.

First of all, I think you can make a single digit female 5 handicap basing entirely upon what I assume is your actual distance.

Use me as a reference point with an estimated 225 average drive, 210 yard average hybrid and 190 yard average 3i. I can make most 415 yard holes in 2 shots with driver/iron. Uphill and downhill holes are usually only about 1 club variation in distance. The last hole I played this morning was a 443 yard par 4 with a so so 220 yard drive then a so so hybrid to within 15-20 yards of the green for a chip/putt par. This hole is the length of your par 5s. If your distance is really 15 yards longer on average than mine, you should be in position to gain 1-2 clubs on most holes. Statistically speaking, it would be hard for you to shoot worse than what I shoot. Note that I'm not that great at approach, short game or putting. I usually shoot in the high 80s/low 90s at 6700 yards, lose 900 yards and I shoot low 80s.

This is why it is really hard to believe you drive 240 yards average. The swing mechanics required for you to drive 240 would put your 6i at 168. These same mechanics would prevent you from making 3 putts per hole which reflects the skill set for decent chipping/pitching.

Handicap and distance are pretty well correlated. Tons of data showing this. This is because you need good really mechanics to hit as far as you stated even for a young male or female in their athletic prime.

[GolfLug]

Ms. Julia,

Here's 2 cents or less. Based on what I have read on your posts as to how much time you are already putting in, I think you will get to within 90% of your best handicap within a couple of years (or even earlier). You are not going to grow in height or strength or get significantly more athletic (since you already are). So unless you have a MAJOR swing flaw still remaining at that point in your swing (you better not in 2 years with this much instruction and practice ), you will find that the law of diminishing returns apply. You will already have milked just about most of your efficiency that you will ever get by then. Not that it is a bad thing at all.

I think it will be interesting to see how far you get within this timeframe. I hope you are a 8-9 by then. 5 will be realistic then.

Good luck!

V

[DrvFrShow]

Thanks.

@Lihu - avg drive is not 240. I should have clarified that is max drive . Max SS is 94 in the cage with the launch monitor when I'm warmed up. It's not what I'll hit on the course unless it's wide open and I'm feeling really confident. I'd say Avg SS is in the upper 80s . My average drive is around 225-230. This was verified with the Foresight Launch Monitor. Just so we're all clear on this.

Yeah, the law of diminishing returns will apply. I'm aware of this one.

[Lihu]

Thanks. @Lihu Just to clarify - avg drive is not 240. I should have clarified that is max drive . [U] Max SS is 94 [/U] in the cage with the launch monitor when I'm warmed up. It's not what I'll hit on the course unless it's wide open and I'm feeling really confident. I'd say [U]Avg SS is in the upper 80s[/U] . My [U]average drive[/U] is around 225-230. This was verified with the Foresight Launch Monitor. Just so we're all clear on this. Yeah, the law of diminishing returns will apply. I'm aware of this one.

Okay, I think I misread something. Anyway, set your goal for female scratch :-)

[DrvFrShow]

I had a lesson on Tuesday. Major changes: takeaway and back swing. I'll try to get a video up soon. Right now I need to practice it. The swing has an earlier wrist cock, and is closer with my right elbow. I have to get a good hip turn to protect my shoulder, and this means a right knee bend to the point of lifting my heel. Downswing plants the heel, rotates the hips and gains the torque in the core muscles generating that which I was trying to generate before with a lot of effort. This is easier. It requires a little timing, but that's not a problem. I'm a musician. I can count. One.... Two. That's it. The ball is gone. It feels comfortable, but now I have to get consistent with it. Don't think.... do.

I get as much distance as I was with my 7 iron with less effort. This is good.

I don't know how it will affect my driver because I haven't hit it yet. He doesn't want me hitting that club yet. Still working on up to 7 and shorter. We'll get there.