Hogan's Pivot - 'Right Loading' Discussion

[14ledo81]

Off topic, but I'm more interested in why there's guy holding a sign with "POOH" on it in the gallery.

It may be due to the slope.  The ball looks to be below his feet.  Not sure if it is really worth commenting on.

Pooh.... for Pooh Bear???  The Golden Bear????

[natureboy]

You can relieve the pressure/force from your foot without moving your COM significantly. I'm not sure what you think the video illustrates (particularly now that you've used it twice…).

I know you think you've got something here… but we teach a heel lift and plant to some players (as a drill or as a little swing piece) with the COM staying in the same spots as it does in the left-heel-down guys.

The only something I think I have is a detail that is interesting to me. I thought the video was deleted as OT in the other thread so I posted it here.

I think there is a difference between shifting your c/g or COM slightly (especially dynamically off a forward press) and keeping it more laterally anchored. Both may produce good swings, but have subtle differences that I find noteworthy. There may be pluses and minuses to both details.

A slight shift of the c/g or COM laterally in the backswing should increase pressure / force under the R foot, which will increase the work being done by the R leg and glute to keep the body at the same height (or even increase it) and reduce pressure in the L. If done a lot it may de-pressure or effectively 'unweight' the left foot analogous to but not as much as with the batters in post #7 of this thread and along the lines of what I see could be happening with Nicklaus in the video if his toe does 'jog' forward a hair.

I think for all golfers staying 'centered' (not swaying) as advocated on the forum is good instruction . I do think there is a continuum of acceptable deviation from absolutely centered (which I am not saying is advocated) with the COM or c/g that I see with Hogan and Nicklaus in their pivots, more so than say Snead - who was also an all-time great.

[iacas]

I think for all golfers staying 'centered' (not swaying) as advocated on the forum is good instruction. I do think there is a continuum of acceptable deviation from absolutely centered (which I am not saying is advocated) with the COM or c/g that I see with Hogan and Nicklaus in their pivots, more so than say Snead - who was also an all-time great.

You're right in that we don't teach staying absolutely "centered." There's wiggle room. In fact, in most golfers we teach, the COM goes back during the backswing. Not as much as the COP, but it goes back.

[natureboy]

You're right in that we don't teach staying absolutely "centered." There's wiggle room. In fact, in most golfers we teach, the COM goes back during the backswing. Not as much as the COP, but it goes back.

This is why I think Hogan and Nicklaus (among others) had a 'right load' that to me possibly increased the COP (not the c/g - COM shift) in the vicinity of 70%+ to the trail foot...and not by simply pushing down into that foot without shifting the c/g & COM toward it dynamically. That's why the apparent Nicklaus 'jog' of the front toe in post#14 of this thread is interesting and relevant to me.

Hogan seems to have lessened the amount of his front foot heel lift during his 'Five Lessons' era, but I expect the 'right load' was still a significant part of his pivot. Much less than Nicklaus in the post#14 video.

Here's a baseball analog along the same lines. Front toe remains on the ground unlike some other baseball swings with a pronounced front leg lift and stride. But it barely remains on the ground with how much the heel lifts. He gets there with a little mico-move bounce of his c/g & COP from back foot to front foot and then extends the front leg to push his hips and core (c/g & COP) noticeably toward the trail leg / foot. To me this initiating action is akin to loading 'right' or back off the forward press in golf.

A small movement of the c/g especially when it uses both lateral and vertical motion (using the ground) can generate significant shifts in forces between the feet because the whole mass of the body is involved. So the batter above is both shifting his c/g closer to the trail foot, but is also pushing (redirecting a lateral force) into the resisting trail leg which I think shifts the COP more than would be expected just from the shift in c/g. This is why I consider Hogan's and Nicklaus' pivots (among others) as distinct in details from a preference for a more grounded front foot and the COP patterns less 'rear loading' styles may have.

I think this buildup of force is where the 'feel' descriptions of 'weight into the trail leg / foot' come from. The c/g - COM shifts 'a bit' (still inside the trail foot) but the total force that is felt in the 'weight bearing' leg is larger than that because it is doing more work to resist both the increased force from the c/g - COM position, but also the force of its lateral movement.

I would characterize the differences as preferences rather than necessary fundamentals, though. I expect there are some likely tradeoffs with each approach.

[Phil McGleno]

@natureboy why are you still talking about this-What is the point? In the end WHO CARES what Nicklaus and Hogan did?-You need to know what you are doing right now. Baseball swings are hardly similar to golf. EB just let this one go. @natureboy does not even seem to know what he is trying to discuss anymore Obviously if you lift your left foot off the ground completely its 100% pressure on your right foot but that doesnt meant your COM has to have moved back. NObody here an IQ above 70 would disagree withthat.

[natureboy]

@natureboy why are you still talking about this-What is the point?

In the end WHO CARES what Nicklaus and Hogan did?-You need to know what you are doing right now.

Baseball swings are hardly similar to golf.

EB just let this one go. @natureboy does not even seem to know what he is trying to discuss anymore

Obviously if you lift your left foot off the ground completely its 100% pressure on your right foot but that doesnt meant your COM has to have moved back. NObody here an IQ above 70 would disagree withthat.

Sorry that you don't the topic of value. Personally, I find it interesting. Someone else interested in comparing and contrasting swing style details may also, even if it's not immediate. You don't have to read the posts.

I disagree. I think that if the left foot is 100% off the ground then the COM has to have moved appreciably relative to its initial position . I am saying this conscious 'shifting of force' around the inside the rear foot is an important part of Hogan's pivot action and that it involves an active movement of his COM on his backswing.

Baseball pivots to power rotational speed can be analogous and informative to golf swings in how the body can use ground forces. That doesn't mean I think they are 'the same' / identical. The baseball references are actually quite relevant to Hogan and an understanding of his analogies and intentions. Studying baseball swings was part of his formative golf swing 'research'.

I think all these posts relate well to the discussion of the details of Hogan's pivot and how much he may or may not have been 'loading right' with use of analogies and comparisons.

[jclark]

Sorry that you don't the topic of value. Personally, I find it interesting. Someone else interested in comparing and contrasting swing style details may also, even if it's not immediate. You don't have to read the posts. I disagree. I think that if the left foot is 100% off the ground then the COM [U]has to[/U] have moved appreciably relative to its initial position. I am saying this conscious 'shifting of force' around the inside the rear foot is an important part of Hogan's pivot action and that it involves an active movement of his COM on his backswing. Baseball pivots to power rotational speed can be analogous and informative to golf swings in how the body can use ground forces. That doesn't mean I think they are 'the same' / identical. The baseball references are actually quite relevant to Hogan and an understanding of his analogies and intentions. Studying baseball swings was part of his formative golf swing 'research'. I think all these posts relate well to the discussion of the details of Hogan's pivot and how much he may or may not have been 'loading right' with use of analogies and comparisons.

I have to disagree. If it is a [U]sway[/U] then yes, you are right. If it's rotational, such as a coil, then I don't agree.

[jclark]

Before you get back on your soapbox, I want to clarify that I am talking about golf swings. I could give two craps about baseball swings on a golf forum

[Ernest Jones]

I could give two craps about baseball swings on a golf forum

Yes, but will you?

[iacas]

I disagree. I think that if the left foot is 100% off the ground then the COM has to have moved appreciably relative to its initial position.

You can lift the left foot off the ground while shifting the COM to the left. I did a video on this…

Baseball pivots to power rotational speed can be analogous and informative to golf swings in how the body can use ground forces. That doesn't mean I think they are 'the same' / identical. The baseball references are actually quite relevant to Hogan and an understanding of his analogies and intentions. Studying baseball swings was part of his formative golf swing 'research'.

I disagree that a baseball swing is very helpful. Their weight stays back, their COM stays back, they don't require secondary axis tilt as in the golf swing, they're not bent over hitting something on the ground, etc. They're more dissimilar than not.

I think all these posts relate well to the discussion of the details of Hogan's pivot and how much he may or may not have been 'loading right' with use of analogies and comparisons.

I'll ask the question you ducked from Phil above: why does it matter how much Hogan "loaded right"?

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree that a baseball swing is very helpful. Their weight stays back, their COM stays back, they don't require secondary axis tilt as in the golf swing, they're not bent over hitting something on the ground, etc. They're more dissimilar than not.

Plus, baseball sucks, golf does not.

[natureboy]

I have to disagree. If it is a sway then yes, you are right. If it's rotational, such as a coil, then I don't agree.

Here is a shift in a baseball swing that features a COM shift with no sway (hips / COM outside rear foot) as an example of the point I was making

Baseball it not identical to golf, but they both use ground forces and a kinetic chain (hands last to go) to generate rotational stick speed. The ratio of lateral to rotational is higher in baseball than golf, but both pivots contain both elements. The plane of delivery is obviously different. Hand action will be different because of the difference in 'stick weight'. I see surprising similarities in the arm action (but working on a different plane).

You can lift the left foot off the ground while shifting the COM to the left. I did a video on this…

I disagree that a baseball swing is very helpful. Their weight stays back, their COM stays back, they don't require secondary axis tilt as in the golf swing, they're not bent over hitting something on the ground, etc. They're more dissimilar than not.

I'll ask the question you ducked from Phil above: why does it matter how much Hogan "loaded right"?

Aspects of the baseball pivot are exaggerated relative to a golf swing, but I think relevant for the topic of Hogan's pivot.

Good description of pressure versus weight in the video. In the example where you lifted your left heel, how much pressure were you maintaining on the ball of the left foot? In other words was it still being used to support your mass to a significant degree or almost negligible?

Not ducking anything. I've explained several times that I find the details of interest in reference to what he wrote in his books. I brought them up in another thread and was declared off-topic so I started this thread as suggested. If folks don't like the posts, they can just ignore them can't they? I don't read everything on the site.

[iacas]

A few points…

• The baseball player's hips clearly shift back in those photos.
• When would a baseball player ever shift his COM outside his rear foot?!?!?!
• Just because of the difference in stick weight? No. A bat is round, and that plays a significant role too. Also point of contact on the arc varies.
• I disagree that there's much we can learn from a baseball hitter and will continue to maintain that baseball is more dissimilar than similar (and will thus stop talking about it).
• The thread is all yours now (which also means that I'd request you not quote or tag me).

[natureboy]

Re. Post# 31:

Yes there is a lot of lateral shift. I think it is analogous to, but much more than Hogan's:

I acknowledge the many differences, but I think the baseball stuff is relevant to Hogan, because he studied baseball swings in developing / working on his swing, and used some baseball analogies in his writings. I find the more extreme examples of the baseball pivot pictures helpful in visualizing and explaining what I meant by this 'right loading' detail of Hogan's pivot. It's more subtle in his motion, and because of his shorter swing with shorter clubs would be very hard to see, though I would argue still present in quality if not quantity.

I didn't say a golfer or baseball player would shift the c/g - COM outside the right (rear) foot. That would be a 'sway' bad for both types of swing pivot. I was saying that it was possible to shift the c/g - COM appreciably without a sway.

[mvmac]

 

Who deleted my post?

A moderator.

 

 

[natureboy]

Who deleted my post?

A moderator.

That quote of mine was from a different post, not the one where I made the comment.

[Ernest Jones]

Re. Post# 31:

…

I didn't say a golfer or baseball player would shift the c/g - COM outside the right (rear) foot. That would be a 'sway' bad for both types of swing pivot. I was saying that it was possible to shift the c/g - COM appreciably without a sway.

Dude, he asked you not to quote or tag him. I imagine because it's time consuming to keep coming back to respond, so he has politely asked you to leave his name out of your posts. Saying, "Re: post 31" is essentially quoting him. He gave the thread to you to ramble on however you see fit, he just wants out. Don't be an arsehole.

PS: your baseball player has shifted his hips at least 4 inches.

[billchao]

Who deleted my post? That quote of mine was from a different post, not the one where I made the comment.

I don't see any other deleted post. Are you sure you posted it instead of saving it as a draft or something?