Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[Silent]

I'm lost.

[turtleback]

Emerson is a local pro at the Brampton Golf Club.   These were his thoughts, but they made sense to me.

The question was to name names.

Judging by your answer it is clear that you don't have any.

I didn't think so.

PS:  Do you play Cliff Clavin on TV?

[Ferguson]

The question was to name names.

Judging by your answer it is clear that you don't have any.

I didn't think so.

PS:  Do you play Cliff Clavin on TV?

I was not calling anyone bad names or throwing mud at anyone.  Just trying to share what I found in research.

Emerson also told me that the PGA Tour pros “stuck in the middle”, you know in that top 20 zone that are not winning, should seek positive reinforcement by their family and friends.  Once that negativity sets in, it's really tough to work it out.

Ferguson

87990

[cubdog]

I'm lost.

Maybe, but not as lost as Ferguson appears to be.

cubdog

[iacas]

Look at The Tiger - in the past he played full-out without fear.

He is now locked up, frozen in fear.  The fear of not being as good as he once was.

No, Tiger simply is not as good as he once was .

Undoubtedly, there is some mental stuff there too… but if you could magically gift him with his 2000 swing (and the ability to do it, etc.) he'd somehow "fix" the mental stuff in a few days. I guarantee it.

Heck, look at Rory last year. He went from struggling to player of the year. In the same year.

Emerson also told me that the PGA Tour pros “stuck in the middle”, you know in that top 20 zone that are not winning, should seek positive reinforcement by their family and friends.  Once that negativity sets in, it's really tough to work it out.

Why in the heck should anyone here care what some dude named Emerson thinks?

I've talked to 50+ PGA Tour players. I've been around Web.com players and talked to them too. They're all trying to be as good as they can be. ALL of them.

The "top 20" players might not give it their all when they're T32 in the fourth round of a non-major, but that's just saving yourself to fight another day. That's not "coasting" and you're not going to stay on Tour for very long if you finish T32 and T47 and T50 and miss a few cuts.

[joekelly]

I'll go with Ferguson on this.  I also believe that ignorance and fear are in front of everyone each day, though maybe he did not say this exactly.

Also i think that peanut gallery attempts to define any other person as to his/her fears is not useful and most likely inaccurate. The best we can do is to examine our own internal fears and work to overcome.

And Erik, bless his heart, says 'all the dogs i listen to, only bark'. As far as the pro golfers, of course they all say WIN WIN WIN.  Coz win = power, prestige, life value and $$$$$.

[iacas]

And Erik, bless his heart, says 'all the dogs i listen to, only bark'. As far as the pro golfers, of course they all say WIN WIN WIN.  Coz win = power, prestige, life value and $$$$$.

No, it's not just what they say. It's how they act, how they practice, how they behave, how they WORK .

[Ferguson]

No, Tiger simply is not as good as he once was.

Undoubtedly, there is some mental stuff there too… but if you could magically gift him with his 2000 swing (and the ability to do it, etc.) he'd somehow "fix" the mental stuff in a few days. I guarantee it.

Heck, look at Rory last year. He went from struggling to player of the year. In the same year.

Why in the heck should anyone here care what some dude named Emerson thinks?

I've talked to 50+ PGA Tour players. I've been around Web.com players and talked to them too. They're all trying to be as good as they can be. ALL of them.

The "top 20" players might not give it their all when they're T32 in the fourth round of a non-major, but that's just saving yourself to fight another day. That's not "coasting" and you're not going to stay on Tour for very long if you finish T32 and T47 and T50 and miss a few cuts.

First let me say – I am a big Tiger Woods fan.

The mental stuff is what drives The Tiger. No magical swing recreation will fix the mental problems. He has never been static player – mentally or physically, meaning the changes throughout his career have been progressive for a reason – to get better. In 2015 - there is no more progression, and he’s stagnant. He is mentally and physically spent. If The Tiger wants to win again, he has to face the facts and simply use what he has left. He’s afraid of losing, but losing is what he needs to experience the most. He must find bottom.

Second let me say – Emerson Mahoney is a great guy.

I take his word as gospel.

[ay33660]

Do you recognize how arbitrary you are being in regards to the 80's/90's versus today?  If the average pro made "double the average family income" back in the 80's or 90's, what kept them from relaxing and enjoying that "easy money" like you are suggesting some today do?  Because while it certainly doesn't sound like a lot now, I bet it sounded like quite a bit back then - especially compared to the peanuts the guys in the 70's and 60's made.  And I'm sure those guys probably griped about the lazy 80's players, just like the guys from the 30's and 40's griped about the lazy guys that have it handed to them on a silver platter in the 60's.  I can picture it now:  In 2060, some guy sitting back in his chair and saying:

I don't think I was being arbitrary.

"Double the average family income" may sound like a lot but it really isn't. This is a comparison of raw dollars. So in 1980 the player at 100th on the money list made $33,769 whereas the median family income was $16,354 so the golf pro had $17,451 more in real dollar income vs. the median family. This is before his expenses. This is a comparison to the median family and not to families with professionals like doctors, dentists, lawyers etc.

Now in 2012 the player at 100th on the money list made $989,753 but the median family income is $49,486. So on a raw dollar basis the golf pro made $940,267 more than the median family. Again this is before expenses. I would suggest that even after expenses the golf pro can put away a lot more for retirement. Now this assumes that the golf pro can live a median family's life style.

So I am suggesting that a golf pro in 2012 who is at 100th on the money list is in a significantly better position to be financial set after his golfing career than a golf pro in the same position in 1980. The golf pro in the 1980's would have to be looking to work at a regular job after his golfing career.

I don't think the gap between a "journeyman" professional golfer and the average family or even a middle class family's income was ever as large in the 30's to 80's as they are today.

[Ferguson]

You know I was thinking about these players that “seem” to be content with being in the top 20, and not striving for wins. Maybe they are too freaking distracted?

If you go to the bios on PGATOUR.com, most of these guys have a blog, tweet address, facebook page and many have websites. If you read about their hobbies, many of them spend far too much time in my opinion playing video games, tweeting and playing board games and face-booking. During Sunday’s coverage, the commentators were talking about how they tweet here and text there. The range was shown and 5 players were on their smart phones texting. If I was their agent or coach, I would strongly advise them to turn off the damn electronic devices and put away the Monopoly, Settlers of Catan and Fanny Doctor board games and get back on the practice range and concentrate on their games.

Ferguson

[Phil McGleno]

[COLOR=000000]You know I was thinking about these players that “seem” to be content with being in the top 20, and not striving for wins.[COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Maybe they are too freaking distracted?[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

They only seem that way to you. I have yet to meet a PGA Tour player who was not working his ass off and trying to have as much success as he can. The only content players I have known are north of 47 or so and just waiting to make their Champions Tour debuts.

[Ferguson]

They only seem that way to you.

I have yet to meet a PGA Tour player who was not working his ass off and trying to have as much success as he can. The only content players I have known are north of 47 or so and just waiting to make their Champions Tour debuts.

You’re assuming the measurement or benchmark for “success” is same for all male pro golfers?

[Phil McGleno]

[COLOR=000000]You’re assuming the measurement or benchmark for “success” is same for all male pro golfers?[COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR][/COLOR]

No I am defining success as doing as well as they can every week. If their game is on that means contending and winning. If it is not it may mean making the cut and working on their game under tournament situations. They are not content to just keep their Tour card year to year.

[dkolo]

No I am defining success as doing as well as they can every week. If their game is on that means contending and winning. If it is not it may mean making the cut and working on their game under tournament situations. They are not content to just keep their Tour card year to year.

The sheer number of guys who've been low on the PGA tour list or in rankings who have competed for wins, like Hahn, Berger, Harrington, O'Hair, Casey, et al, in the past few weeks alone demonstrates that Norman's contention is nonsense. Lack of winning isn't the same thing as lack of trying to win. There's only so many wins to go around, and it's also really, really hard.

[Ferguson]

The sheer number of guys who've been low on the PGA tour list or in rankings who have competed for wins, like Hahn, Berger, Harrington, O'Hair, Casey, et al, in the past few weeks alone demonstrates that Norman's contention is nonsense. Lack of winning isn't the same thing as lack of trying to win. There's only so many wins to go around, and it's also really, really hard.

This is partially correct.

I’m saying these player’s conception of success may not be entirely driven by winning. Gil Anderson, the author of Going Fore It states: “There is no other more powerful directing force in golf and life than the power of belief.” If one doesn’t believe in himself, one is lost. Some of these guys will forever be lost in the middle 20. Only they know if they believe they can do it or they cannot.

[dkolo]

[COLOR=000000]This is partially correct.[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR]

[COLOR=000000]I’m saying these player’s conception of success may not be entirely driven by winning.[COLOR=000000] [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Gil Anderson, the author of[/COLOR] [U][COLOR=000000]Going Fore It[/COLOR][/U] [COLOR=000000]states: “There is no other more powerful directing force in golf and life than the power of belief.”[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]If one doesn’t believe in himself, one is lost.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Some of these guys will forever be lost in the middle 20.[/COLOR][COLOR=000000]  [/COLOR] [COLOR=000000]Only they know if they believe they can do it or they cannot.[/COLOR] [COLOR=000000] [/COLOR][/COLOR]

Yeah, but my friend Bob Sacamano says that the guys who are content with mediocrity are the guys who dont get on Tour in the first place or get shuffled off in short order.

[Ferguson]

Yeah, but my friend Bob Sacamano says that the guys who are content with mediocrity are the guys who dont get on Tour in the first place or get shuffled off in short order.

Well done.  Gil is real.

Being a pro golfer that is satisfied with hanging around the top 20 without winning can appropriately be correlated to the invisible man paradox. Wouldn’t it be cool to live the glamorous life of pro golfer? HARDLY. As would it be equally cool to be the invisible man? HARDLY. Although being the invisible man might seem cool, the paradox is that your retinas would be transparent and you would be blind. The same paradox applies to these golfers – sure you get to wear cool labels of fashionable clothing, but wearing the label of “being a top twenty golfer without a win” is the paradox of being a pro golfer that Norman is describing. That’s for damn sure.

Ferguson

[turtleback]

Well done.  Gil is real.

Being a pro golfer that is satisfied with hanging around the top 20 without winning can appropriately be correlated to the invisible man paradox.  Wouldn’t it be cool to live the glamorous life of pro golfer?   HARDLY.  As would it be equally cool to be the invisible man?  HARDLY.   Although being the invisible man might seem cool, the paradox is that your retinas would be transparent and you would be blind.  The same paradox applies to these golfers – sure you get to wear cool labels of fashionable clothing, but wearing the label of “being a top twenty golfer without a win” is the paradox of being a pro golfer that Norman is describing. That’s for damn sure.

Ferguson

Sorry, but these "top 20 but do not win" guys do not exist.  You were asked for names and you had nothing.

But I did a little compilation of how many players in the top 20 did not have a win.  I did it by 4 year intervals starting in 2014, to cut down the work.  So here is the list of how many guys in the top 20 did not have a win:

2014: 5

2010: 6

2006: 3

2002: 3

1998: 5

1994: 3

1990: 4

1986: 5

1982: 2

I do not see any great sea change there.

You have lots of "reasoning" and worship of your buddy but precious little actual hard data or facts.