Greg Norman Says Players Content with Top 20s over Wins

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win? And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell?

I'm going to break it down for you with examples:

If a guy puts in extra effort, will he win?

Woods, Singh, Player, Brian Barnes, the list goes on

---- Hardworking guys that looked to summit and found the summit all by extra effort - fitness, practice, mental toughness and plain old grit.

And if he doesn't win after putting in the extra effort, how can you tell?

J. B. Holmes, Dan Berger and Charley Hoffman

---- these are the guys that are satisfied with just taking the tour cash and keeping up appearances.  Two missed the cut at the Valspar, methinks?

Charley Hoffman and JB Homes have each won three times on tour - http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.12716.charley-hoffman.html/career, http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.27141.j-b--holmes.html/career.

So you are telling us that JB Holmes really didn't want to win two weeks ago?  Is it remotely possible that other players were just a tiny bit better than him in that tournament and on a routine basis?  Could it be possible that even though he works is ass off, that maybe the guys ahead of him are just a tiny bit better?

Dan Berger has played in 13 event since he joined the tour.  He is a rookie.   He almost won.  Not everyone can be Tiger or Rory and win instantly on tour.

You belittle the effort it takes to win on tour.  You think "maybe if he just wanted it more he would win."  Your logic and examples are not good.

[Ferguson]

If I'm understanding you, Holmes, Berger, and Hoffman put in the hallowed extra effort and are accused simultaneously satisfied with being mediocre, right?

No, I never used the word mediocre. In fact, I stated earlier in this very thread that PGA TOUR players are fantastic golfers and any of them on the right day could shoot 63.

I hold their skills in high regard.

With that being said - I am questioning their motives. If the tour cash is flowing and they have endorsement contracts, and that is satisfactorily paying the bills - why should they try beyond putting forth the maximum effort? I’m saying that not everyone is driven by winning.  Some, MANY, are driven by money. They are being driven into the pen of tour cash like cattle by the PGA to sell more tickets and merchandise.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that tour cash, for lack of a better word, is not good. Tour cash is not right, Tour cash does not work. Tour cash fails to clarify, cut through, and capture the essence of the evolutionary golf spirit. Tour cash, in all of its forms; Tour cash for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the surge of PGA stagnation. And Tour cash, you mark my words, will not only spoil the PGA, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

Ferguson

[Ferguson]

Charley Hoffman and JB Homes have each won three times on tour - http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.12716.charley-hoffman.html/career, http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.27141.j-b--holmes.html/career.

So you are telling us that JB Holmes really didn't want to win two weeks ago?  Is it remotely possible that other players were just a tiny bit better than him in that tournament and on a routine basis?  Could it be possible that even though he works is ass off, that maybe the guys ahead of him are just a tiny bit better?

Dan Berger has played in 13 event since he joined the tour.  He is a rookie.   He almost won.  Not everyone can be Tiger or Rory and win instantly on tour.

You belittle the effort it takes to win on tour.  You think "maybe if he just wanted it more he would win."  Your logic and examples are not good.

Charley Hoffman and JB Homes will not win again in 2015 – mark my words and mark this post, please.  After the press conference I saw - the fire in the belly just is not there, sorry to say.  They seem deflated.

Dan Berger works hard and puts forth the effort, right?  No.  Almost doesn’t cut it.

Re: You think "maybe if he just wanted it more he would win."

Now you’re understanding where I am coming from. Winning takes an innate drive.  If you read any biography from a champion/winner in any sport, they all concur that drive comes more from the soul than just a paycheck.  The exception being the NFL and NBA – those guys play purely for money.

[dkolo]

[COLOR=181818]No, I never used the word mediocre.   In fact, I stated earlier in this very thread that PGA TOUR players are fantastic golfers and any of them on the right day could shoot 63.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=181818]I hold their skills in high regard.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=181818]With that being said - I am questioning their motives.  If the tour cash is flowing and they have endorsement contracts, and that is satisfactorily paying the bills - why should they try beyond putting forth the maximum effort?   I’m saying that not everyone is driven by winning.  Some, MANY, are driven by money.   They are being driven into the pen of tour cash like cattle by the PGA to sell more tickets and merchandise.    [/COLOR]

[COLOR=333333]The point is, ladies and gentleman, that tour cash, for lack of a better word, is not good. Tour cash is not right, Tour cash does not work. Tour cash fails to clarify, cut through, and capture the essence of the evolutionary golf spirit. Tour cash, in all of its forms; Tour cash for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the surge of PGA stagnation. And Tour cash, you mark my words, will not only spoil the PGA, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA.[/COLOR]

Not mediocre in an absolute sense, but you're implying they're content with being a mediocre Tour professional when you talk about stagnating and settling for payouts. You cited Holmes as an example, which strikes me as crazy. The guy won on tour, had two brain surgeries, other maladies, then won again. Now he came in second in a four man playoff and finished runner up last week. How can you question his motivation? It's an insult to the effort he puts in. One more putt falls at Torrey and he's a winner. This standard you have is insane and lacks any basis in fact.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Charley Hoffman and JB Homes have each won three times on tour - http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.12716.charley-hoffman.html/career, http://www.pgatour.com/players/player.27141.j-b--holmes.html/career.

So you are telling us that JB Holmes really didn't want to win two weeks ago?  Is it remotely possible that other players were just a tiny bit better than him in that tournament and on a routine basis?  Could it be possible that even though he works is ass off, that maybe the guys ahead of him are just a tiny bit better?

Dan Berger has played in 13 event since he joined the tour.  He is a rookie.   He almost won.  Not everyone can be Tiger or Rory and win instantly on tour.

You belittle the effort it takes to win on tour.  You think "maybe if he just wanted it more he would win."  Your logic and examples are not good.

Charley Hoffman and JB Homes will not win again in 2015 – mark my words and mark this post, please.  After the press conference I saw - the fire in the belly just is not there, sorry to say.  They seem deflated.

Dan Berger works hard and puts forth the effort, right?  No.  Almost doesn’t cut it.

Re: You think "maybe if he just wanted it more he would win."

Now you’re understanding where I am coming from. Winning takes an innate drive.  If you read any biography from a champion/winner in any sport, they all concur that drive comes more from the soul than just a paycheck.  The exception being the NFL and NBA – those guys play purely for money.

I am understanding that your logic is immensely flawed.

[Gunther]

I don't think there's any question that the majority on tour don't have what it takes to be a consistent winner from a physical, mental or emotional standpoint. They are quite content with journeyman status. It's hard to be great. Fame is not all it's cracked up to be and I believe many don't want it. They're doing what they love in relative obscurity and are happy. I saw JJ Henry in the airport the other day. He waited in the security line like everyone else, no one recognized him but me. Imagine he were Tiger or Phil or Rory or even young Jordan now. What a pain in the neck that would be. Where Norman goes a little sideways is relating this to today's players. True, the money is great now and you really had to win in the old days to make it a long term career but there have always been journeymen and perhaps those of today aren't quite as hungry as those of yesteryear because today's journeymen are very wealthy. Not sure why Norman is taking such heat, douchebag? C'mon.

[dkolo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunther

I don't think there's any question that the majority on tour don't have what it takes to be a consistent winner from a physical, mental or emotional standpoint. They are quite content with journeyman status.

It's hard to be great. Fame is not all it's cracked up to be and I believe many don't want it. They're doing what they love in relative obscurity and are happy. I saw JJ Henry in the airport the other day. He waited in the security line like everyone else, no one recognized him but me. Imagine he were Tiger or Phil or Rory or even young Jordan now. What a pain in the neck that would be.

Where Norman goes a little sideways is relating this to today's players. True, the money is great now and you really had to win in the old days to make it a long term career but there have always been journeymen and perhaps those of today aren't quite as hungry as those of yesteryear because today's journeymen are very wealthy.

Not sure why Norman is taking such heat, douchebag? C'mon.

I know this thread's gone 9 pages, so I just want to reset and summarize so we're on the same page:

This is what Norman said:

Quote:

Most Tour pros, Norman said, don’t really want to reach the top, not down deep, not in a sport where 20th place can pay six figures. “Certain players are happy just going through the motions. They don’t want to be the leader, they would rather be a sheep. They enjoy grazing the field and getting fat and sassy,” he said.

That statement is a combination of platitudes that don't stand up to even cursory scrutiny and and really insulting insinuations to players who work their asses off to get on and stay on Tour and who try really hard to win, but fall short because winning is really effing hard. He argues that it's a comfortable life on easy street to be middle of the pack when, in fact, the benefits of winning to them (2 years of status, exemptions, access to Masters, better tee times, money, etc.) are a huge motivation. And that's without even addressing the fact that these guys are competitive and want to win even if they fail to do so, which Norman seems to dismiss with his comment. That's the crux of the issue a lot of people, myself included, had with his comments. The arguments others have made are narrative based post-hoc rationalizations (you don't win because you didn't want to / didn't try hard enough; that's bullshit: winning is hard and in a field of 150 players, it's tough to win when the talent level is as good as it is). He may be projecting ideas from his day (which may or may not have been true then). It may have been easier to move up with added effort and practice. Now, even guys struggling to keep their cards have swing coaches, mental coaches, physio trainers, etc. The baseline for what is required is so much higher than before. There's only marginal gains to be had because everyone is already doing their damnedest to get the most from their talent. So my point is Norman incorrectly attributes to character flaws what is more accurately attributable to a deep talent pool and overall difficulty of winning.

[iacas]

@Ferguson , please stop signing your posts with your username.

We know it's you, and because your browser or a plugin or something posts crappy code, your signing each post wastes even more space. Consider using a different browser or disabling whatever sort of "style" plugin you have that's resulting in goofy code.

Also read up on multi-quoting, please: .

---

BTW, JB Holmes fought back from brain surgery to get back out on the PGA Tour, and you slight him because he was a bit dejected immediately after coming this close to a post-op PGA Tour victory at a difficult, brutal course?

Sheesh.

[Ferguson]

Re: ………………the fact that these guys are competitive and want to win even if they fail to do so………….. That's the crux of the issue a lot of people, myself included, had with his comments. Is it so far-fetched that some guys on tour play for the comfort and money of a paycheck, or is contentedness disallowed inside the ropes? Winning and Success are daunting. TWO FACTS ARE CLEAR: Just a guess - most of you guys do not like Norman and would have countered his statements regardless. Methinks as a former # 1 in the world, The Shark has the privilege (typed in italics) to make a goofy comment - I think that's his style. I know Jack has inserted his foot into his mouth a few times in the past.

[iacas]

Winning and Success are daunting.

So is earning PGA Tour status, but they've all managed to do that. [quote name="Ferguson" url="/t/80534/greg-norman-says-players-content-with-top-20s-over-wins/150#post_1116703"] TWO FACTS ARE CLEAR: Just a guess - most of you guys do not like Norman and would have countered his statements regardless.[/quote] Your opinions and assumptions are anything but fact. I enjoyed watching Greg play. Big fan in the 90s. Your assumption, errrr, "fact" is wrong. Time to validate your email address @Ferguson . You have until the end of the day.

[dkolo]

Re: ………………the fact that these guys are competitive and want to win even if they fail to do so…………..

That's the crux of the issue a lot of people, myself included, had with his comments.

Is it so far-fetched that some guys on tour play for the comfort and money of a paycheck, or is contentedness disallowed inside the ropes?

Winning and Success are daunting.

TWO FACTS ARE CLEAR:

Just a guess - most of you guys do not like Norman and would have countered his statements regardless.

Methinks as a former # 1 in the world, The Shark has the privilege (typed in italics) to make a goofy comment - I think that's his style.

I know Jack has inserted his foot into his mouth a few times in the past.

This is not a correct use of the word "fact"

Edit: @iacas beat me to it

Also: Playing for comfort and money is a big aspect of why they want to win so much. Winning provides more comfort and money and greater long-term security of being able to count on the ability to earn comfort and money. Your theoretical guy who coasts is a guy who loses his Tour card, if he ever got on the Tour at all. The competition is at too high a level to coast. Or to get fat and sassy.

[Ferguson]

So, it is impossible for a tour pro to be frightened by the fame and fortune that winning could bring to their lives?

[dkolo]

So, it is impossible for a tour pro to be frightened by the fame and fortune that winning could bring to their lives?

That's such a weird red herring. You started with they were content to be cashing checks and now they're actively afraid of winning? Guy who are afraid of winning tournaments don't become professional golfers. Your assertions are veering deeply into the bizarre.

[Ferguson]

"maybe we all could learn something about red herrings and scapegoats" - name the movie Anyway, please read back into the thread. I brought up fear as one of the major hurdles. I spoke in detail about Achievemephobia. My point is that there a combination of factors playing hard on these guys and it takes more than working their butts off to win. They have more to overcome playing one hole on a Sunday than I will ever have to overcome playing golf in my life. Fear, comfort, family, money, expectations, goals, sponsors, cards, appearances, the press………….and so on. Fear of failure is a big driver for finding comfort in anyone’s life. In addition, the fear of success is prominent too. They are only human so therefore I think at least some of them find solace in playing for paycheck until their bright shining moment appears and they have a chance to take victory. Just because they are PGA pros doesn’t make them immune to fear.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

TWO FACTS ARE CLEAR:

Just a guess - most of you guys do not like Norman and would have countered his statements regardless.

Your opinions and assumptions are anything but fact.

I enjoyed watching Greg play. Big fan in the 90s. Your assumption, errrr, "fact" is wrong.

My wife always said he had the best ass on Tour! I enjoyed watching him play, but for other reasons.

For me, Norman sort of filled much of the PGA entertainment gap in the years between Jack and Tiger.

[dkolo]

Good points.

Look at the scope of the modern game.   These guys have everything they need to succeed: playing coaches, swing trainers, life coaches, mental coaches, free lunches, the newest and the best clothes, waterproof gear and the list goes on.

For pete’s sake, Jack Nicklaus wore the same damn pair of pants on Saturday as he did on Sunday for the 18-hole US OPEN playoff with Arnie in 1962.  It wasn’t about fashion or grace or what flavor Power Bar was hot this week.   It was about playing the game to WIN.

Are the modern players winning more majors?  No.

Are there some good rivalries on tour?  No.

I grew up watching the greats, so I was spoiled.   My point - modern golfers are basically homogenous.

I’m not saying they don’t try – I’m just saying they don’t have to try as hard, and it shows.

The extra effort is what separates the greats from the mundane.

Ferg

You know I was thinking about these players that “seem” to be content with being in the top 20, and not striving for wins.   Maybe they are too freaking distracted?

If you go to the bios on PGATOUR.com, most of these guys have a blog, tweet address, facebook page and many have websites.   If you read about their hobbies, many of them spend far too much time in my opinion playing video games, tweeting and playing board games and face-booking.  During Sunday’s coverage, the commentators were talking about how they tweet here and text there.   The range was shown and 5 players were on their smart phones texting.   If I was their agent or coach, I would strongly advise them to turn off the damn electronic devices and put away the Monopoly, Settlers of Catan and Fanny Doctor board games and get back on the practice range and concentrate on their games.

Ferguson

Anyway, please read back into the thread. I brought up fear as one of the major hurdles.

I spoke in detail about Achievemephobia.

My point is that there a combination of factors playing hard on these guys and it takes more than working their butts off to win. They have more to overcome playing one hole on a Sunday than I will ever have to overcome playing golf in my life. Fear, comfort, family, money, expectations, goals, sponsors, cards, appearances, the press………….and so on. Fear of failure is a big driver for finding comfort in anyone’s life. In addition, the fear of success is prominent too.

They are only human so therefore I think at least some of them find solace in playing for paycheck until their bright shining moment appears and they have a chance to take victory. Just because they are PGA pros doesn’t make them immune to fear.

So, to recap, you've brought up as reasons why many players don't choose to win:

- Players having support staff (why pay to have all these people help you when you don't want to win?)

- Not having to try as hard to win as earlier eras (I've explained why this is wrong)

- Distractions (they're too distracted to win, you say; but they're also afraid of winning and the distractions it'll bring. So many distractions, the players must be doomed!)

- Fear of the pressures of winning

- Having too many changes of pants

In any event, I think you may have gotten around to the fundamental point at the end and not even realized it: the "some" you reference that take solace in a paycheck for not winning are taking solace in that paycheck because they're unhappy about not winning. That's the point. They want to win tournaments.

[Ferguson]

In any event, I think you may have gotten around to the fundamental point at the end and not even realized it: the "some" you reference that take solace in a paycheck for not winning are taking solace in that paycheck because they're unhappy about not winning. That's the point. They want to win tournaments.

Eventually we find the end. Agreed.

[turtleback]

In a nutshell, I believe Norman is saying in his own arrogant way that “it takes extra effort to win.”

So he knew all about what these guys need to win yet could not marshal it himself in the tournaments he cared the most about.  Too bad he could never put in the effort and mental prep that NIck and Nick, Vijay, Seve, Ernie, Payne, etc. did.