Unplayable Lie In The Bunker

[jsgolfer]

Here is a possible way out of the predicament.   When taking relief from an unplayable ball under Rule 28c , you have to drop your ball within two club lengths.  That means anywhere within that distance whether just under 2 club lengths, 2 centimetres or whatever.

I'm going right back to the original description because it occurs to me that the phrase I've highlighted in red might suggest that you think that when taking relief from an unplayable ball you have to drop two club lengths away.  You can drop any distance within that maximum - even  just a centimetre if it helped   sort the problem of finding somewhere not nearer the hole.

In this instance any club length got you closer t the hole.

[ColinL]

You seem still to be fixed on club lengths.  You could, as I maybe didn't explain clearly enough, drop your ball on or a mere centimetre away from the unplayable lie. In the situation you describe it might be possible to drop the ball so that it struck  the bunker face just above where it had been i.e. further from the hole.  If it rolls into a place which requires a redrop, you drop again.  If the same happens again, you place the ball. If the placed ball won't stay in that place, you find a place not nearer the hole where it does stay at rest when placed.  That procedure might get you into a playable position from the ball embedded in the bunker face.

[jsgolfer]

You seem still to be fixed on club lengths.  You could, as I maybe didn't explain clearly enough, drop your ball on or a mere centimetre away from the unplayable lie. In the situation you describe it might be possible to drop the ball so that it struck  the bunker face just above where it had been i.e. further from the hole.  If it rolls into a place which requires a redrop, you drop again.  If the same happens again, you place the ball. If the placed ball won't stay in that place, you find a place not nearer the hole where it does stay at rest when placed.  That procedure might get you into a playable position from the ball embedded in the bunker face.

I know the rules on dropping. And as I stated several times, the location of the ball and the flag precluded any of what you described.  The ball was almost under the lip, it was the weirdest lie I can ever remember seeing in a bunker.

[rdsandy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

You seem still to be fixed on club lengths.  You could, as I maybe didn't explain clearly enough, drop your ball on or a mere centimetre away from the unplayable lie. In the situation you describe it might be possible to drop the ball so that it struck  the bunker face just above where it had been i.e. further from the hole.  If it rolls into a place which requires a redrop, you drop again.  If the same happens again, you place the ball. If the placed ball won't stay in that place, you find a place not nearer the hole where it does stay at rest when placed.  That procedure might get you into a playable position from the ball embedded in the bunker face.

I know the rules on dropping. And as I stated several times, the location of the ball and the flag precluded any of what you described.  The ball was almost under the lip, it was the weirdest lie I can ever remember seeing in a bunker.

Then go back to your previous spot and take a penalty

[jsgolfer]

I would've played it and it wasn't even my ball.

I had just never seen a situation where you couldn't find a spot within two club lengths to drop.  Thought it was an odd situation, brought it up.  Not that major of a deal like everyone seems to be making it out to be.

Last time I respond to this topic.

[mdl]

We weren't there and there's no picture, so obviously we don't know as well as you do what exactly the lie looked like.  But I am inclined to think that if the ball wasn't under the lip (you said almost under the lip), then it seems that the thing that must have made it unplayable was the fact that it was super buried and very close to the lip?

I ask just because if it's not actually under the lip and the bunker face isn't vertical or near vertical, then it seems to me that it should be physically possible to drop it to land exactly even with the original lie say 1" to the side twice, then place it there (a very minor push on the placement should get it to stay in the bunker unless it's near vertical), then try to play it out, possibly with an almost vertical down stroke.  I'm not challenging you, I'm just interested what exactly made that option not possible?  Bunker face too vertical?  Ball actually slightly under the lip?

Of course, in the situation I describe it might be that your most likely outcome is a one stroke penalty followed by ridiculous swing attempt to get the placed ball out of the bunker and then a second bunker shot.  So then, depending on how far away the approach shot was from, you're essentially saying that a guaranteed 5th shot from the bunker has a better average outcome than a 4th shot back from where the 2nd was taken.  This may or may not be true depending on where the approach shot was from, hole layout, conditions, and player skill of course.

[ColinL]

..... I ask just because if it's not actually under the lip and the bunker face isn't vertical or near vertical, then it seems to me that it should be physically possible to drop it to land exactly even with the original lie say 1" to the side twice, then place it there (a very minor push on the placement should get it to stay in the bunker unless it's near vertical), then try to play it out, possibly with an almost vertical down stroke.........

Yes, see post #17, but be careful,  You cannot push the ball down to make it stay put.

[Rulesman]

We weren't there and there's no picture, so obviously we don't know as well as you do what exactly the lie looked like.  But I am inclined to think that if the ball wasn't under the lip (you said almost under the lip), then it seems that the thing that must have made it unplayable was the fact that it was super buried and very close to the lip? I ask just because if it's not actually under the lip and the bunker face isn't vertical or near vertical, then it seems to me that it should be physically possible to drop it to land exactly even with the original lie say 1" to the side twice, then place it there (a very minor push on the placement should get it to stay in the bunker unless it's near vertical), then try to play it out, possibly with an almost vertical down stroke.  I'm not challenging you, I'm just interested what exactly made that option not possible?  Bunker face too vertical?  Ball actually slightly under the lip? Of course, in the situation I describe it might be that your most likely outcome is a one stroke penalty followed by ridiculous swing attempt to get the placed ball out of the bunker and then a second bunker shot.  So then, depending on how far away the approach shot was from, you're essentially saying that a guaranteed 5th shot from the bunker has a better average outcome than a 4th shot back from where the 2nd was taken.  This may or may not be true depending on where the approach shot was from, hole layout, conditions, and player skill of course.

A very minor push is a push nontheless

[mdl]

A very minor push is a push nontheless

Yeah I get that.  I'm just saying that if I "place" a ball in sand with the exact same amount of pressure/maneuvering/whatever anyone would use in any not perfectly flat area of grass to get it to stay where it's placed, it'll depress the sand enough that it'll stay there too unless the bunker face is super steep.

[ColinL]

Yeah I get that.  I'm just saying that if I "place" a ball in sand with the exact same amount of pressure/maneuvering/whatever anyone would use in any not perfectly flat area of grass to get it to stay where it's placed, it'll depress the sand enough that it'll stay there too unless the bunker face is super steep.

Even the slightest pressure on the ball will result in your altering the surface of the sand  - which is a breach of Rule 1-2

[joekelly]

If i can lift, clean and place (when permitted) and when placing move a blade of grass, am i penalized? As the Rules of Golf gets twisted around a grain of sand, it's little wonder folks take up bowling.

[David in FL]

If i can lift, clean and place (when permitted) and when placing move a blade of grass, am i penalized? As the Rules of Golf gets twisted around a grain of sand, it's little wonder folks take up bowling.

Moving a blade of grass, or a grain of sand is not the same as pushing the ball into the sand with enough force (however much or little that might be) to keep it place where it wouldn't normally remain without that additional help....

[DrvFrShow]

So apparently the solution in this situation is to knock it out of the spot with the back side of your putter (or other club) with a left handed swing (assuming it's embedded on the wrong side of the bunker lip) and let the ball roll to a more playable spot in the bunker (essentially a penalty but you hit the ball instead) then hit out of the bunker with your wedge.

[ColinL]

If i can lift, clean and place (when permitted) and when placing move a blade of grass, am i penalized? As the Rules of Golf gets twisted around a grain of sand, it's little wonder folks take up bowling.

If I can lift, clean and place (when permitted) and when placing move a blade of grass, am I penalised? No

If I press a ball down when placing it in order to make it stay in place, am I penalised? Yes .

That's what the rules tell us simply and straightforwardly.   Where's the problem?  I expect that since bowling takes place on a very level surface without trees, ponds, sprinkler heads, trolleys, bunkers, rabbit holes, soggy bits, puddles,  etc, etc, its rules do not have to cover so many situations, but there will no doubt be rules.