Caitlyn Jenner Gets Arthur Ashe Courage Award, Noah Galloway Is Runner Up?

[newtogolf]

I think it's more clear cut when it comes to sports though. The Olympics have a pretty strict set of conditions which must be met for a transgender person to be able to compete.

Agreed, they do now but it doesn't cover the years Jenner competed.

[Jeremie Boop]

Agreed, they do now but it doesn't cover the years Jenner competed.

True enough, but he wasn't trying to compete as a woman. Regardless of what he's doing now, at the time of competition he was a man, living as a man, competing as a man. Regardless, this is technically OT I think.

[turtleback]

I just read there is a petition within the IOC to strip Jenner of her Olympic medals based on her public admission that she's always viewed herself as a woman.  According to the article, the IOC rules state that men and women may not compete against each other and if Jenner considered herself a woman during that time she was violating the rules of competition.

It's not expected to gain much support but does open a Pandora's Box.

And yet men and women compete against each other in every Olympics*, so this cannot be an across the board IOC Olympic rule.

*Equestrian

Who knew that Bruce Jenner was going to end up the Kardasianist Kardashian of them all?

[newtogolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

And yet men and women compete against each other in every Olympics*, so this cannot be an across the board IOC Olympic rule.

*Equestrian

Who knew that Bruce Jenner was going to end up the Kardasianist Kardashian of them all?

Here is the Petition Letter

Quote:

Dear International Olympic Committee,

It has recently come to light that gold medalist Bruce Jenner is in fact transgender, and therefore, identifies as a woman. We congratulate Ms. Jenner on these new developments and wish her the best. However, this creates somewhat of a problem as Ms. Jenner (as talented as she is) claims that she has always believed herself to be truly female, and therefore, was in violation of committee rules regarding women competing in men's sports and vice versa.

Therefore, it is with a heavy heart that we must ask whether or not it is proper that Ms. Jenner should retain her olympic records in light of this, as we must now either claim that Bruce Jenner and Caitlyn Jenner are two entirely different people (which we know is not true), or that Bruce Jenner was, in fact, a woman participating in a men's event. It is only fair to all involved that women receive their credit as champions of the Decathalon [sic] and that the men racing Ms. Jenner are not expected to compete with a superior, streamlined being such as herself.

We urge Ms. Jenner to support the transgender community by giving up the medals earned by competing against the wrong gender.

Thank you, and congratulations to Ms. Jenner for her courage!

#givebackthegold.

[Golfingdad]

Here is the Petition Letter

Ummm, is it just me or is that letter not to be actually taken seriously? Sounds like a woman having a laugh.

[newtogolf]

Ummm, is it just me or is that letter not to be actually taken seriously? Sounds like a woman having a laugh.

I thought it was questionable or possibly even an Onion story but it appears legit as all the news organizations are reporting it and people are signing the petition.

[Jeremie Boop]

I thought it was questionable or possibly even an Onion story but it appears legit as all the news organizations are reporting it and people are signing the petition.

Seems like a rather blatant attempt to punish Jenner. All the positive comments seem very backhanded. It's really quite petty.

[Ernest Jones]

Ummm, is it just me or is that letter not to be actually taken seriously? Sounds like a woman having a laugh.

Agree. Totally tongue and cheek, check out this line "and that the men racing Ms. Jenner are not expected to compete with a superior, streamlined being such as herself." The fact that people are signing it makes even funnier, or sadder. Kinda both at the same time. Reminds of back in the day when Canadian right-wing politician Stockwell Day came under fire for some homophobic comments. Part of his party's platform included automatic referendums for any proposal supported by a petition signed by 3% of Canadian voters. Canadian satirist extrordinaire, Rick Mercer immediately launched a petition to have Stockwell's first name legally changed to Doris. AND HE REACHED THE 3% THRESHOLD. If that ain't funny as shit, I dunno what is. Sorry for the OT, had to share. :-P

[Golfingdad]

Agree. Totally tongue and cheek, check out this line "and that the men racing Ms. Jenner are not expected to compete with a superior, streamlined being such as herself." The fact that people are signing it makes even funnier, or sadder. Kinda both at the same time. Reminds of back in the day when Canadian right-wing politician Stockwell Day came under fire for some homophobic comments. Part of his party's platform included automatic referendums for any proposal supported by a petition signed by 3% of Canadian voters. Canadian satirist extrordinaire, Rick Mercer immediately launched a petition to have Stockwell's first name legally changed to Doris. AND HE REACHED THE 3% THRESHOLD. If that ain't funny as shit, I dunno what is. Sorry for the OT, had to share. :-P

Even funnier is that there is a "counter petition" created by somebody suggesting that he should keep the medals and that the first petition is all about hate. Lol.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I thought it was questionable or possibly even an Onion story but it appears legit as all the news organizations are reporting it and people are signing the petition.

Seems like a rather blatant attempt to punish Jenner. All the positive comments seem very backhanded. It's really quite petty.

Agreed on all counts.  This is just hateful people who have their panties in a wad over the whole thing and want to somehow punish Jenner.  It's ridiculous and I doubt it will ever get off the ground.

[turtleback]

Here is the Petition Letter

OK, but what does that have to do with my post which merely pointed out that contrary to the statement I quoted and bolded, there is no Olympic wide rule against men and women competing against each other?

[newtogolf]

OK, but what does that have to do with my post which merely pointed out that contrary to the statement I quoted and bolded, there is no Olympic wide rule against men and women competing against each other?

In the events Jenner competed in and won medals, women were not permitted to compete against the men

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

OK, but what does that have to do with my post which merely pointed out that contrary to the statement I quoted and bolded, there is no Olympic wide rule against men and women competing against each other?

In the events Jenner competed in and won medals, women were not permitted to compete against the men

What they're completely overlooking in their blind prejudice and hatred is that regardless of his state of mind, Bruce Jenner was at that time genetically male.  What he thought or felt like is completely and totally irrelevant - he had male hormones and male body characteristics, and was competing against other males of similar composition.  If a 6'10" NBA player goes home after games, puts on lingerie and dances to Shania Twain's " Man, I Feel Like a Woman ", does that mean he should be playing in the WNBA?  Of course not, the whole premise behind their "campaign" is utterly ridiculous.  It's a bunch of nut cases frothing at the mouth because somebody doesn't conform to their idea of "righteousness".

[boogielicious]

Here are interesting stories about two viral posts and where they came from after Jenner got the Ashe award.  The 'Galloway runner up" rumor came from a tweet by WEEI Boston's Gerry Callaghan, no stranger to controversy and the other is about the photo used in a post about "real" courage.  Turns out Callaghan was "just joking" and the other photo is not of real soldiers.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/2015/06/03/weei-gerry-callahan-the-source-the-caitlyn-jenner-noah-galloway-espy-rumor/nUEigARY35X2lITmOnVwFM/story.html

http://www.bdcwire.com/caitlyn-jenner-facebook-post/?p1=feature_stack_6_hp

[newtogolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac62

What they're completely overlooking in their blind prejudice and hatred is that regardless of his state of mind, Bruce Jenner was at that time genetically male. What he thought or felt like is completely and totally irrelevant - he had male hormones and male body characteristics, and was competing against other males of similar composition.  If a 6'10" NBA player goes home after games, puts on lingerie and dances to Shania Twain's " Man, I Feel Like a Woman ", does that mean he should be playing in the WNBA?  Of course not, the whole premise behind their "campaign" is utterly ridiculous.  It's a bunch of nut cases frothing at the mouth because somebody doesn't conform to their idea of "righteousness".

That's the Pandora box I referred to in my original post because in the latest release from OSHA, it was determined that employers are required to permit Transgender workers to use the restroom they identify with, so a person that is genetically a male but identifies as a woman should be permitted to use the Ladies restroom.  Ideally OSHA suggests eliminating male and female restrooms and making them all gender neutral.

Quote:

The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) issued guidelines Monday suggesting that employers allow transgender employees access to the restroom that corresponds to their gender identity.

The four-page “Guide to Restroom Access for Transgender Workers” was created at the request of the National Center for Transgender Equality.

“Gender identity is an intrinsic part of each person’s identity and everyday life,” the report says. “Accordingly, authorities on gender issues counsel that it is essential for employees to be able to work in a manner consistent with how they live the rest of their daily lives, based on their gender identity. Restricting employees to using only restrooms that are not consistent with their gender identity, or segregating them from other workers by requiring them to use gender-neutral or other specific restrooms, singles those employees out and may make them fear for their physical safety.”

The report further advises employers that “Bathroom restrictions can result in employees avoiding using restrooms entirely while at work, which can lead to potentially serious physical injury or illness.”  An estimated 700,000 U.S. adults are transgender, according to the Williams Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles.

[turtleback]

In the events Jenner competed in and won medals, women were not permitted to compete against the men

Again, what does that have to do with what I was responding to, which I made bold on purpose?:

Now, maybe the answer is that the article is wrong or maybe the answer is that you quoted it wrong.  But the point I was making is that the IOC rules do NOT STATE that men and women may not compete against each other.  How do I know?  Because there are Olympic events where men and women DO compete against each other and I cited one: equestrian.

There aren't any IOC rules that prohibit it.

There are individual sports that do not allow it and they make up the vast majority of the Olympics, but essentially each sports Ruling Body makes these determinations, not the IOC.   I targeted my comment pretty specifically to IOC rules.

[kpaulhus]

This is a great read and while I think the "fame" surrounding that whole family is sickening. I like to poke a little fun at the subject. Personally, I'm very open on social media about my life....so I guess you could say I'm jealous they're paid so much for their redic lives. Haha

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

That's the Pandora box I referred to in my original post because in the latest release from OSHA, it was determined that employers are required to permit Transgender workers to use the restroom they identify with, so a person that is genetically a male but identifies as a woman should be permitted to use the Ladies restroom.  Ideally OSHA suggests eliminating male and female restrooms and making them all gender neutral.

Quote:

The Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) issued guidelines Monday suggesting that employers allow transgender employees access to the restroom that corresponds to their gender identity.

The four-page “Guide to Restroom Access for Transgender Workers” was created at the request of the National Center for Transgender Equality.

“Gender identity is an intrinsic part of each person’s identity and everyday life,” the report says. “Accordingly, authorities on gender issues counsel that it is essential for employees to be able to work in a manner consistent with how they live the rest of their daily lives, based on their gender identity. Restricting employees to using only restrooms that are not consistent with their gender identity, or segregating them from other workers by requiring them to use gender-neutral or other specific restrooms, singles those employees out and may make them fear for their physical safety.”

The report further advises employers that “Bathroom restrictions can result in employees avoiding using restrooms entirely while at work, which can lead to potentially serious physical injury or illness.”  An estimated 700,000 U.S. adults are transgender, according to the Williams Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles.

IMO, that's a pretty easy fix.  OSHA should use the same (or similar) standards that the IOC uses, as quoted by Jeremie:

Quote:

The policy has three main requirements for both MTF and FTM trans athletes:

• They must have had gender reassignment surgery
• They must have legal recognition of their assigned gender
• They must have at least two years of hormone therapy

While not perfect (it does not, for example, give insight into intersex issues), this model has become the standard bearer against which many high-level sports organizations have measured themselves. The IOC adoption of the policy gave impetus (and sometimes political cover) for other groups to do the same.

In other words, if you're a man walking around in a dress (think Corporal Klinger from M*A*S*H*), you use the men's bathroom; if you've had the operation, made a full transition and are legally recognized as a female, use the bathroom of your assigned gender.  It only makes sense - once a person has had gender reassignment surgery, they've got boobs and 'indoor plumbing'.  Once it's gone to that point, the underlying chromosomes are irrelevant.  Having them use the men's bathroom or locker room with their feminine attributes on display is just as inappropriate as forcing genetic women into the same situation.  One way or the other there's going to be something about it that's uncomfortable for somebody, but IMO the above would be the most sensible solution.