What should I write down for a score?

[Abu3baid]

Here is the situation on a par 3. People ahead and behind us. I push my first shot OB (we can all see it sitting there) I hit a straight draw that goes over a hill on the left side of the green and my partner says you should be ok (there is OB on that side as well) so we get into the cart and go. We get there and it is OB and there is no way I'm going back. I drop around where I was and hole out the hole by getting on and in with 3 strokes from there. Obviously this wasn't played by the rules of golf, but I score my self a 7 (4 over).. Should I score my self more? I mean that is the minimum I'm assuming since 4 strokes are from the 2 OB shots.. What should I have done?

[mdl]

1) 1st shot

2) OB Penalty

3) 2nd shot

4) OB penalty

5) Simulated 3rd tee shot that ended where you dropped

6) Pitch on

7, 8) 2 putts in

I'd give you an 8

[DaveP043]

I assume you're asking about a score to use for handicap posting.  I think 7 is the lowest score you would probably have made, if you played the hole out (i.e. went back to the tee one more time), and 8 may be even more likely.

You may have read some of a recent thread about this general topic.  Some would say you should record par plus any handicap strokes you would receive on that hole, which would be either 4 or 5 in your case.  I don't agree, I believe you should score this as the most likely score you would have had.  If you want to read the actual rule, check out Rules 4-1 and 4-2 of the USGA Handicap Manual:

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/

[David in FL]

For hcp reporting, any holes that you fail to complete under the rules of golf should be scored as par plus any handicap strokes to which you're entitled. In your case, that means you'll post a "4", unless that par 3 has a handicap rating such that you'd get 2 strokes there, in which case you'd post "5". There are instances where it can be argued that because the player had accrued so many strokes before giving up, that his most likely score would exceed his ESC max and that the ESC should just be used, but I don't see that in your case. Hitting 5 from the tee, it's not unreasonable to think that you could have still scored 7 had you continued to play properly. That's at least 1 stroke better than your ESC max of 8 or 9. Your actual course hcp determines which....

[Abu3baid]

1) 1st shot 2) OB Penalty 3) 2nd shot 4) OB penalty 5) Simulated 3rd tee shot that ended where you dropped 6) Pitch on 7, 8) 2 putts in I'd give you an 8

I see your point, but when I dropped it was just to get some more strokes in at that point.. I could have just as well gone to the cart and waited to go to the next hole? [quote name="DaveP043" url="/t/83429/what-should-i-write-down-for-a-score/0_10#post_1174632"]I assume you're asking about a score to use for handicap posting.  I think 7 is the lowest score you would probably have made, if you played the hole out (i.e. went back to the tee one more time), and 8 may be even more likely.   You may have read some of a recent thread about this general topic.  Some would say you should record par plus any handicap strokes you would receive on that hole, which would be either 4 or 5 in your case.  I don't agree, I believe you should score this as the most likely score you would have had.  If you want to read the actual rule, check out Rules 4-1 and 4-2 of the USGA Handicap Manual: [URL=http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/]http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/[/URL] [/quote] I'll have to read up on this par plus strokes because I don't know anything about it.. Now, most likely score could have been a 6,7 or 8 no? I could argue that I had just birdied the previous par 3 which was the same exact distance.. So, is it legitimate for me to just say that the most likely score is me hitting on the green and putting out for a 7? I'm not arguing I'm just thinking out loud here :) Although, for HC purposes at the moment it could be argued that if I am not doing my self any favors by giving my self a 7, and giving my self an 8 better serves me since I still suck at 26 HC or what ever? [quote name="David in FL" url="/t/83429/what-should-i-write-down-for-a-score/0_10#post_1174634"]For hcp reporting, any holes that you fail to complete under the rules of golf should be scored as par plus any handicap strokes to which you're entitled. In your case, that means you'll post a "4", unless that par 3 has a handicap rating such that you'd get 2 strokes there, in which case you'd post "5". There are instances where it can be argued that because the player had accrued so many strokes before giving up, that his ESC max would be appropriate, but I don't see that in your case. Hitting 5 from the tee, it's not unreasonable to think that you could have still scored 7 had you continued to play properly. That's at least 1 stroke better than your ESC max of 8 or 9. Your actual course hcp determines which....[/quote] The first one sounds really unreasonable doesn't it? I wouldn't feel good about giving my self a 4 or 5 since I am hitting 5 off the tee as you mentioned.. At the same time, it is also unreasonable to score a 9 as that's a lot of strokes I'm adding on (sandbagging?) But overall it seems like there is no issue if I gave my self a 7 or 8 on the hole, I just want to be consistent going forward as I start keeping a HC.. So, how about if this happens again that I just take what ever number of strokes and penalties I have earned and then just giving myself the par of the hole? ie as if I had played it at par? Would that be legitimate? Or do I have to do it at par + strokes + actual shots/penalties earned?

[David in FL]

I see your point, but when I dropped it was just to get some more strokes in at that point.. I could have just as well gone to the cart and waited to go to the next hole? I'll have to read up on this par plus strokes because I don't know anything about it.. Now, most likely score could have been a 6,7 or 8 no? I could argue that I had just birdied the previous par 3 which was the same exact distance.. So, is it legitimate for me to just say that the most likely score is me hitting on the green and putting out for a 7? I'm not arguing I'm just thinking out loud here :) Although, for HC purposes at the moment it could be argued that if I am not doing my self any favors by giving my self a 7, and giving my self an 8 better serves me since I still suck at 26 HC or what ever? The first one sounds really unreasonable doesn't it? I wouldn't feel good about giving my self a 4 or 5 since I am hitting 5 off the tee as you mentioned.. At the same time, it is also unreasonable to score a 9 as that's a lot of strokes I'm adding on (sandbagging?) But overall it seems like there is no issue if I gave my self a 7 or 8 on the hole, I just want to be consistent going forward as I start keeping a HC.. So, how about if this happens again that I just take what ever number of strokes and penalties I have earned and then just giving myself the par of the hole? ie as if I had played it at par? Would that be legitimate? Or do I have to do it at par + strokes + actual shots/penalties earned?

That's exactly the point. You're not "giving yourself" anything. You're in effect being punished for not finishing the hole properly by having to post a low score that precludes sandbagging. In a competitive round, you would have been disqualified.

[DaveP043]

@David has provided the opinion that I mentioned.  My suggestions is to read the rules I mentioned, and the decisions on the rules, and follow your best judgement based on them.  If you want to explore further, you can send an email to the USGA and ask for their interpretation.

I see your point, but when I dropped it was just to get some more strokes in at that point.. I could have just as well gone to the cart and waited to go to the next hole?

This, to me, is the reason I suggest that the "most likely score" is appropriate.  If you sit in the cart, its a "hole not finished", so you would record your most likely score.  I don't believe that its appropriate that you would be forced to report a lower score because you simply played a few shots to keep active, and to keep your playing partner company.

As I mentioned previously, this issue has been discussed at GREAT length in a previous thread, and didn't produce a unified conclusion.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/82295/par-handicap-for-holes-not-played-under-the-principles-of-the-rog

[DrvFrShow]

You played from the wrong place and gave yourself an advantage. That's 3 stroke penalty. You would post your ESC for the hole.

[Abu3baid]

Thanks guys.. You've been really helpful.. I'll take a look at all mentioned sources.

[DrvFrShow]

Rule 4-2 of the USGA Handicap Manual states this:

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

If you had not finished the hole and picked up Rule 4-1 would have taken effect.

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score . The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit, defined in Section 4-3 . This most likely score should be preceded by an "X." (See Decision 4-1/1 .)

Most likely score: A " most likely score" is the score a player must post for handicap purposes if a hole is started but not completed or if the player is conceded a stroke. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes the player would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. This number may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit.

[DaveP043]

I could argue that I had just birdied the previous par 3 which was the same exact distance.. So, is it legitimate for me to just say that the most likely score is me hitting on the green and putting out for a 7? I'm not arguing I'm just thinking out loud here :)

Although, for HC purposes at the moment it could be argued that if I am not doing my self any favors by giving my self a 7, and giving my self an 8 better serves me since I still suck at 26 HC or what ever?

Assuming that you're going to record your "most likely score", ( @David in FL will disagree) I'd say 7 or 8 would be appropriate.  You'd be hitting 5 off the tee, and I'd guess at your handicap level, you're at least as likely to make 4 there as 3, leading to 7 or 8 total.  The rules rely on your integrity to post the appropriate score.  What the rules do NOT do is allow you to post a score that "better serves" you.

[David in FL]

Assuming that you're going to record your "most likely score", ( @David in FL will disagree) I'd say 7 or 8 would be appropriate.  You'd be hitting 5 off the tee, and I'd guess at your handicap level, you're at least as likely to make 4 there as 3, leading to 7 or 8 total.  The rules rely on your integrity to post the appropriate score.  What the rules do NOT do is allow you to post a score that "better serves" you.

The OP himself admits that his score could be anything from 6 to 9. By saying that "7 or 8 would be appropriate, you demonstrate that we really don't know what his most likely score even is. This isn't about his scorecard, it's about preserving the integrity of the handicap system. Most likely score is generally used in match play. As an example, you have a 40 foot putt for birdie and your opponent makes double and concedes the hole. You're most likely to 2-putt from 40 feet, so you'd score yourself a par, even though your birdie was conceded.

[mdl]

I wasn't thinking really in terms of HCP posting, just self-monitoring.  I think this comes from the fact that I've only ever played in tournaments associated with a league/men's club I've joined where only in-club/league tournament scores are used for tournament handicapping and you're just ineligible for prizes/placing, or play off a 0, until you have enough tournament rounds recorded.  So my official handicap has really only ever been for personal tracking.

For self tracking I see the 8 as the most representative score, since at your handicap I'd guess your average score on a par 3 is around 4, if not greater?  So if you'd gone back and reteed again, you'd probably have scored a legit 8.

Even for posting for tournaments that handicap off your general cap, I wouldn't feel bad about posting a 7.  I mean, you hit two shots OB and would've been hitting 5 off the tee, and you're going to post a 4?  I get being a stickler for the rules, and I play 100% by the rules except in the exact situation you describe: unexpectedly lost ball on a busy course where you're an ******* if you walk back to the tee because you want to play by the rules instead of just taking a two stroke penalty and moving on.  But that seems a tad excessive.

On a side note, I was convinced long ago in another thread (by @David in FL !) to take liberal provisionals to prevent being forced to not play by the rules in this way as often as possible.  And that has indeed significantly decreased the frequency with which I have to make this scoring fudge.  But you can't hit a provisional every single time you hit a shot and can't see where it finished (meaning there's some chance it's lost), so there will be unexpected lost balls, and I think the scoring method I laid out is a reasonable compromise in those situations.  I mean, if you were really struggling with that club on that tee, it's entirely possible you would have hit another OB and posted an even higher score (though of course eventually you'd hit ESC and it wouldn't matter), so in a way this is already slightly vanity capping.

[mdl]

The OP himself admits that his score could be anything from 6 to 9. By saying that "7 or 8 would be appropriate, you demonstrate that we really don't know what his most likely score even is. This isn't about his scorecard, it's about preserving the integrity of the handicap system.

I get that. But it hardly seems like preserving the integrity of the handicap system to post a 4 in this situation.  He should have been hitting 5 off the tee, and he should post a 4?  As I said above you yourself convinced me long ago to take lots of provisionals to avoid this situation.  But given he didn't take a provisional third tee shot, it seems a bit silly to me to say that thing that maintains integrity is to post 2 less than was physically possible had he followed the rules exactly (yes, I'm calling an ace "impossible").

Personally I'd post an 8 cause I use my cap for self-tracking.  If I played a wide range of tournaments I'd post a 7.  I can see the argument for posting a 6.  But I don't see the argument for posting a 4.

[DaveP043]

The OP himself admits that his score could be anything from 6 to 9. By saying that "7 or 8 would be appropriate, you demonstrate that we really don't know what his most likely score even is. This isn't about his scorecard, it's about preserving the integrity of the handicap system.

Most likely score is generally used in match play. As an example, you have a 40 foot putt for birdie and your opponent makes double and concedes the hole. You're most likely to 2-putt from 40 feet, so you'd score yourself a par, even though your birdie was conceded.

At the risk of continuing the lengthy discussion of the previous thread, I'd say that the integrity of the handicap system lies in posting the accurate score, not the lowest possible score.  If the player is hitting his 5th shot, posting a 4 is not accurate, in my opinion.  The lone decision on Rule 4-1 puts the responsibility for determining the most likely score on the player:

It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment , the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score.

As to match play vs. stroke play, there's nothing in the rules or decisions that limits the appropriateness of either rule (4-1 or 4-2) to match or stroke play.

Again, I understand your reasoning as to which rule applies, I simply disagree with it.

[Abu3baid]

I wasn't thinking really in terms of HCP posting, just self-monitoring.  I think this comes from the fact that I've only ever played in tournaments associated with a league/men's club I've joined where only in-club/league tournament scores are used for tournament handicapping and you're just ineligible for prizes/placing, or play off a 0, until you have enough tournament rounds recorded.  So my official handicap has really only ever been for personal tracking.

For self tracking I see the 8 as the most representative score, since at your handicap I'd guess your average score on a par 3 is around 4, if not greater?  So if you'd gone back and reteed again, you'd probably have scored a legit 8.

Even for posting for tournaments that handicap off your general cap, I wouldn't feel bad about posting a 7.  I mean, you hit two shots OB and would've been hitting 5 off the tee, and you're going to post a 4?  I get being a stickler for the rules, and I play 100% by the rules except in the exact situation you describe: unexpectedly lost ball on a busy course where you're an ******* if you walk back to the tee because you want to play by the rules instead of just taking a two stroke penalty and moving on.  But that seems a tad excessive.

On a side note, I was convinced long ago in another thread (by @David in FL!) to take liberal provisionals to prevent being forced to not play by the rules in this way as often as possible.  And that has indeed significantly decreased the frequency with which I have to make this scoring fudge.  But you can't hit a provisional every single time you hit a shot and can't see where it finished (meaning there's some chance it's lost), so there will be unexpected lost balls, and I think the scoring method I laid out is a reasonable compromise in those situations.  I mean, if you were really struggling with that club on that tee, it's entirely possible you would have hit another OB and posted an even higher score (though of course eventually you'd hit ESC and it wouldn't matter), so in a way this is already slightly vanity capping.

I agree with this 100%.. For me personally on that hole I hit the provisional and I had a feeling that it could have been OB and I mentioned it to my partner and he said no I'm pretty sure you are OK.. other wise I would have hit another as I have no issue doing that, it was his confidence in how he said it and maybe wishful thinking on my part (a little bit) that made me go along.  It was almost like he was also saying come on no need to take another provisional sort of thing..  But generally I agree,  and I think going forward if I think it is OB then I will just hit a provisional.. but I think if I hit another one OB that's where I just get in the cart and put my head down :)

[DrvFrShow]

I wouldn't beat up myself over 1 stroke. The system will even it out over time.

[Abu3baid]

I wouldn't beat up myself over 1 stroke. The system will even it out over time.

I'm not at all.. I'm just trying to learn to make sure I do the right thing going forward.. it's been a good discussion too, I learned from it.