Where to drop?

[DrvFrShow]

West of that red line is a lateral hazard. We are allowed to drop a ball two club lengths from point of entry no nearer the hole. Unfortunately the slope can have you dropping a ball that will bounce with glee right back into the water itself or back into the hazard. You don't want to go there. You usually end up placing the ball on the ground. The water is about 2 feet below land. Also as you can see the red line ends at the vegetation, which in my opinion should be included in the hazard itself since its purpose is to prevent soil erosion of so that the blacktop doesn't fall into the hazard. It is also out of line of sight from where you're hitting your ball, thus bringing into account a problem of virtual certainty in borderline cases.

Finally there is a problem of no nearer the hole depending upon where you went in. What I'm thinking in this situation is asking the committee to implement a drop zone to the left of the apron in front of the green near the south end of the red line. Thoughts?

On Tuesday, I had a my second shot land on the front of the green and bounce happily up onto the upper level and take another bounce and roll off the upper back left somewhere. We looked and couldn't find it anywhere. Another player had theirs land and hang up in the vegetation in the hazard. Mine was nowhere to be found in the hazard - you could see tons of other balls in the hazard - I have very distinctive markings on mine. So it could have gone under the bushes which we couldn't see under either. Would the bushes be considered part of the hazard? Or was it considered a lost ball?

I picked up and took X6 for the hole since we had a foursome bearing down on us, and got into an argument with our handicap chair who said I needed to take ESC, which everyone else has been doing - because that's what the pro said is the rule for incomplete holes.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

Finally there is a problem of no nearer the hole depending upon where you went in. What I'm thinking in this situation is asking the committee to implement a drop zone to the left of the apron in front of the green near the south end of the red line. Thoughts?

A drop zone where you suggest would possible give an advantage/disadvantage depending on where the ball entered the LWH in relation to where the hole is on the day to the south west. eg ball enters LWH at top, hole at bottom vs opponent whose ball enters at bottom.

Why not in space just south of the bunker?

In addition. If the water runs through the vegetation, it (the vegetation) should be included in the LWH. However, pehaps then there should be two DZs. One to the north and oneto the south. The player has to play from the nearest.

Incidentally, does the red line run south down the whole LWH out of the picture? That of course would have to be excluded from the DZ use.

[DrvFrShow]

Good point, Rulesman. A dropzone south of the bunker would probably do the job and just keep it simple.

Yes, the red line runs south all the way. The bushes? I'm not exactly sure. Like I said, they're "decorative erosion control" and due to the obstructed view because of the slope could be marked as part of the hazard at least until the ground becomes visible to simplify things for that "virtual certainty" issue because you really can't be certain for some ball flights.

The USGA really needs to define "virtual certainty." It means almost certain.

The course has had some marking issues.

[ColinL]

The USGA really needs to define "virtual certainty." (a)     It means almost certain. (b)

a) It has.

b) It doesn't.

See Decision 26-1/1

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-26,d26-1-1

[Rulesman]

A dropzone south of the bunker would probably do the job and just keep it simple.

Yes, the red line runs south all the way.

So someone entering the lwh 100 yards south would drop in the DZ?

[DrvFrShow]

No. We'd make it a local rule that only if you enter the LWH within the north-south boundaries of the green and apron that you use the drop zone, since dropping anywhere from that point northward puts you closer to the hole. For simplicity I think we should extend the LWH boundary line up to the corner of the asphalt. The pink line is the bottom of the apron.

So how about this location for the DZ? Having played regularly there, that lie is not exactly what I'd call a picnic, and it does cover no nearer the hole in most cases except when that red flag is on the right. That's why there's a bit of real estate for the pitch.

[natureboy]

If it's a lateral and the drop on the green side is dicey, isn't the play to drop on the opposite bank?

[ColinL]

If it's a lateral and the drop on the green side is dicey, isn't the play to drop on the opposite bank?

You are correct that that is an option with a lateral water hazard, but from the photo there is no way of knowing how long the hazard is and even from what you can see it would be very time-consuming to go all the way round in order to play from the opposite side.  Also a tricky shot.

[DrvFrShow]

The hike around to the other side would take you half way back to the tee and then over onto the 18th hole area. You hit your shot from over there, then drive all the way around to the green again. If you're walking it isn't practical. Too time consuming.

[No Mulligans]

I'm not sure what the problem is with the two club length drop rule.

Drop, re-drop, place, right?  Perhaps you just have a local rule that allows you to skip the drop and re-drop and just go straight to the placing of the ball.  Sounds like a lot of balls would be saved that way.

And it sounds like the plants to the back left of the green should have red stakes along the right boundary of the plants.

[saevel25]

On drop zones,

6. Dropping Zones

Establishing special areas on which balls may or must be dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c(Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable)

Decision on Drop Zone

26/3.5

Lateral Water Hazard Defined as Water Hazard

Q.A body of water which is both in front of and to the right of a putting green is so large that it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard as required by Rule 26-1b. May the Committee define the hazard or parts of the hazard as a water hazard even though it meets the Definition of a "Lateral Water Hazard"?

A.Yes - see Note 3 to the Definition of "Lateral Water Hazard." However, this should only be done when a Committee deems it necessary to preserve the integrity of the hole. In such cases the establishment of a dropping zone as an additional option under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26-1) may be justified.

The committee may deem a lateral water hazard (red stakes) as a water hazard (yellow stakes). Note 3 states that a lateral water hazard can be made a normal water hazard. I believe the committee can deem any part of it as such. Lets say from the top of the red line in the image above to just before the green. I've seen some lateral water hazards cross the fairway and the part there was marked yellow compared to the rest marked red.

If the water hazard is marked red, then it is a lateral water hazard and should not have a drop zone. If they make the local rule then they should mark it yellow.

I believe it is allowed as a local rule.

[Rulesman]

If the water hazard is marked red, then it is a lateral water hazard and should not have a drop zone. If they make the local rule then they should mark it yellow.

I believe it is allowed as a local rule.

Where does it say that?

[saevel25]

Where does it say that?

Decision 26/3.5 says that in the notes of the definition for a lateral water hazard, that a lateral can be made a normal water hazard. Under definition a normal water hazard, it shall be marked yellow. A lateral water hazard shall be marked red.

To get a drop zone for a lateral it must be considered a water hazard, marked yellow. If it is a non lateral water hazard you do not get the drop option (c) from 26-1. Also by definition a water hazard should be marked yellow not red. If it is marked red then it is a lateral water hazard and as such should not have a drop zone since it must first be made a water hazard as stated in the decision.

Follow the quotes.

A.Yes - see Note 3 to the Definition of "Lateral Water Hazard." However, this should only be done when a Committee deems it necessary to preserve the integrity of the hole. In such cases the establishment of a dropping zone as an additional option under the water hazard Rule (Rule 26-1) may be justified.

Note 3: The Committee may define a lateral water hazard as a water hazard.

From the Water Hazard definition

Note 1: Stakes or lines used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard must be yellow.

If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.

[Rulesman]

Under definition a normal water hazard, it shall be marked yellow. A lateral water hazard shall be marked red.

I think you ought to read the definition of a Lateral Water Hazard.

A " lateral water hazard " is a water hazard

[saevel25]

I think you ought to read the definition of a Lateral Water Hazard.

A "lateral water hazard" is a water hazard

Then why make the distinction in the "Lateral Water Hazard" definition by having a note 3? This note allows the committee to define what would otherwise be a Lateral Water Hazard as just a Water Hazard.  In the decision 26/3.5 the USGA clearly references note 3 in the definition for a Lateral Water Hazard.

If the Committee was allowed to just add drop zones where they want then why make this distinction at all? Unless when you add a drop zone you must declare it just a water hazard, not a lateral water hazard. As such you take away the 2 club lengths dropping option. This means it must be marked yellow, not red.

The only reason why a water hazard is marked red is to declare it a lateral hazard and to add the dropping option (c), two club lengths.

[DrvFrShow]

The main problem I see in this location is dropping no closer to the hole. It's almost impossible. Yes you could go straight to placing in a casual round, but you're still going to be closer to the hole. We've already established that dropping on the opposite side is impractical due to the distance needed to be traveled and the time consumed.

So what you're saying is that to avoid this situation, the area around the green should be marked with yellow, and a drop zone placed in the rough approximately where I drew it south of the bunker. The player would still have the option of rehitting their shot, of course. Then above the green in the bushes put red stakes.

[No Mulligans]

The main problem I see in this location is dropping no closer to the hole. It's almost impossible. Yes you could go straight to placing in a casual round, but you're still going to be closer to the hole. We've already established that dropping on the opposite side is impractical due to the distance needed to be traveled and the time consumed.

So what you're saying is that to avoid this situation, the area around the green should be marked with yellow, and a drop zone placed in the rough approximately where I drew it south of the bunker. The player would still have the option of rehitting their shot, of course. Then above the green in the bushes put red stakes.

If the boundary line is the red line you wrote in, I don't see any spot along that line were you couldn't get further from the hole than where you crossed the line.  You just need to have your two club distance running almost along the line.  I'm considering every hole and every spot along the line.  Am I missing something here?

[Rulesman]

The only reason why a water hazard is marked red is to declare it a lateral hazard and to add the dropping option (c), two club lengths.

1) Most significantly c(ii).

2) 26-3.5 is about a specific situation relating to giving appropriate relief to a ball in a large body of water where certain relief options are not available or appropriate. It just says that a DZ may be justified to overcome the problem.

It does not make a general rule about the use of dropping zones and types of water hazards.

3) You will see that the Appendix I Part A 6 does not exclude any type of water hazard.

Dropping Zones Establishing special areas on which balls may or must be dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

4) The Specimen Local Rule in Appendix I Part B 8 does not differentiate between types of water hazard. In fact it doesn't even mention Lateral Water Hazards.