The Master how to become a "Professional Golfer" thread?

[phillyk]

yup it is physical and biologic attributes... and yes, some are blessed with them, and most of us aren't...

take an nfl lineman as an example... many of them just look like fat guys... but they are blessed with the ability to move very quickly in small spaces... a lot of people would be surprised at just how quick that 325 pound guy really is...

or another sport i'm rather fond of, cycling... some guys are blessed with amazing aerobic and anaerobic capacity that the great majority of humans simply don't have...

or baseball and the ability to hit...

and so on...

I would say that most of that takes a lot of practice in their fields, but proper practice more importantly.  Working out the right muscle groups and doing breathing exercises.  Many things can give you the physical attributes, but there also has to be the drive to continue to do it and at the top level.  Talent is a broad term to me that includes a bit of everything.

[newtogolf]

The people that really have the talent and drive to become a professional golfer aren't likely going to an internet forum asking strangers who don't know anything about them if they can become a pro.

[ccotenj]

[QUOTE name="ccotenj" url="/t/83913/the-master-how-to-become-a-professional-golfer-thread#post_1186731"] yup it is physical and biologic attributes... and yes, some are blessed with them, and most of us aren't... take an nfl lineman as an example... many of them just look like fat guys... but they are blessed with the ability to move very quickly in small spaces... a lot of people would be surprised at just how quick that 325 pound guy really is... or another sport i'm rather fond of, cycling... some guys are blessed with amazing aerobic and anaerobic capacity that the great majority of humans simply don't have... or baseball and the ability to hit... and so on...[/QUOTE] I would say that most of that takes a lot of practice in their fields, but proper practice more importantly.  Working out the right muscle groups and doing breathing exercises.  Many things can give you the physical attributes, but there also has to be the drive to continue to do it and at the top level.  Talent is a broad term to me that includes a bit of everything.

nope... they have an innate ability to do something... everything after that (drive, conditioning, etc.) is developing that talent into something useful... take my 100 meter example... you can have all the drive in the world, but it isn't going to change your basic ratio of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscles... you can take a world class marathoner (who has a makeup that is highly biased to slow-twitch), and you would never make them into a world class sprinter (who requires a makeup that is highly biased to fast-twitch)... i know this goes against the old "you can be anything you want to be" saw... sadly, it is reality...

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cody Book

Also if we are talking about natural talent, who has it? Show me someone who naturally just picked up a club and was able to knock it right where they wanted it. I don't really believe in natural talent. Go across any sport and look who is at the top. I bet it's the person who put in more practice with a coach, then someone who just decided one day hump I'm actually really good I should play on the PGA.

you would lose that bet...

if you look at who are the "best" participants in any sport, you will find that they are blessed with physical skills that others simply don't possess...

edit: it isn't limited to sports... it is true of everything...

Even with natural talent, one needs to work at it hard. @Cody Book posters here are suggesting talented person can pick up golf club and play bogey golf in a month.   Without talent, you can still be good at something.   But you can't get to pro level for a popular sport without being talented, hard work ethic, lucky break along the way, resource, ...

[Cody Book]

You can develop slow-twitch/fast-twitch muscles, you are not born with one or the other. You take the NFL lineman and ask him how many hours he practiced in peewees, midgets, highschool, college, professional career. It will mount to most of his life. That amount of athleticism he has is directly related to how much time and effort he put into it.

Labron James would be LJ if he didn't practice harder then anyone else on the court, he has said that.

[ccotenj]

You can develop slow-twitch/fast-twitch muscles, you are not born with one or the other. You take the NFL lineman and ask him how many hours he practiced in peewees, midgets, highschool, college, professional career. It will mount to most of his life. That amount of athleticism he has is directly related to how much time and effort he put into it. Labron James would be LJ if he didn't practice harder then anyone else on the court, he has said that.

the vast majority of people are born with about a 50/50 ratio... the amount of athleticism some have isn't directly related to the time and effort put into it... the development of the "given" athleticism is what you are referring to... there are many many people who work their tail off to get someplace, and they don't get there because they do not have the innate talent to do so... sorry... the answer isn't "work harder and you'll get there"... if only it was that simple...

[rkim291968]

You have to be born with certain physical attributes - be it exceptionally quick muscle reflex (most sports), height (basketball, volleyball), stronger bone muscle, larger lung (long distance runner), ....  Lacking those, one can get to certain level.   But higher level one goes, it gets tougher and tougher to compete with just hard work ethic alone.   God must have smiled on the person in some way another, especially, for popular sports that attracts a lot of competition.   In less popular sports, one may get pretty far without talent.  But in golf?  One needs to be special.

[phillyk]

You have to be born with certain physical attributes - be it exceptionally quick muscle reflex (most sports), height (basketball, volleyball), stronger bone muscle, larger lung (long distance runner), ....  Lacking those, one can get to certain level.   But higher level one goes, it gets tougher and tougher to compete with just hard work ethic alone.   God must have smiled on the person in some way another, especially, for popular sports that attracts a lot of competition.   In less popular sports, one may get pretty far without talent.  But in golf?  One needs to be special.

What would you say it is for golf? Just "special" isn't enough.  We know it's not height, larger lung, stronger bone muscle; it could be some fast reflexes or hand-eye coordination.  But what then?  What physical attribute(s) make golf easier for pros that us, others, can't have?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

You have to be born with certain physical attributes - be it exceptionally quick muscle reflex (most sports), height (basketball, volleyball), stronger bone muscle, larger lung (long distance runner), ....  Lacking those, one can get to certain level.   But higher level one goes, it gets tougher and tougher to compete with just hard work ethic alone.   God must have smiled on the person in some way another, especially, for popular sports that attracts a lot of competition.   In less popular sports, one may get pretty far without talent.  But in golf?  One needs to be special.

What would you say it is for golf? Just "special" isn't enough.  We know it's not height, larger lung, stronger bone muscle; it could be some fast reflexes or hand-eye coordination.  But what then?  What physical attribute(s) make golf easier for pros that us, others, can't have?

Pretty much the ability to hit the ball a long way with tons of control, then all the short game stuff. If you have these abilities, you need to have the ability to handle very high pressure situations.

[GolfLug]

What would you say it is for golf? Just "special" isn't enough.  We know it's not height, larger lung, stronger bone muscle; it could be some fast reflexes or hand-eye coordination.  But what then?  What physical attribute(s) make golf easier for pros that us, others, can't have?

Lot of club players have physical ability, mechanics, distance  and hand-eye co-ord of a pro level player I think. They can make functional swings as well as an elite player.

Thing is, all the above are just pre-requisites. Players of highest caliber (you could loosely say the PGA tour level players) have the singular ability to distill the list of things that makes their very highly functional swing repeatable by being 100% present (...or close to it) for 100% of shots (...or close to it). Easier said then done over time but I think that's where the 'money' is.

To borrow an often used statistical measure of excellence - metaphorically their swings and shot dispersion (bell curve) falls within a 6 sigma variance (or some very high sigma variance). Higher the caliber, narrower the variance over time. I also don't think they sustain excellence because they are better Golfbots than the good club player. On the contrary, I think it is precisely because they are not and can re-caliberate and galvanize quicker on their feet, whether it be a swing flaw, course requirement or any number of variances and distractions.

Of course, we all do these things to our certain level. They do it better. Like bunch of sigma variances better.

[hillis11]

nope... they have an innate ability to do something... everything after that (drive, conditioning, etc.) is developing that talent into something useful...

take my 100 meter example... you can have all the drive in the world, but it isn't going to change your basic ratio of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscles... you can take a world class marathoner (who has a makeup that is highly biased to slow-twitch), and you would never make them into a world class sprinter (who requires a makeup that is highly biased to fast-twitch)...

i know this goes against the old "you can be anything you want to be" saw... sadly, it is reality...

I agree with you for the most part but take that world class marathon runner and start him or her at an early age to be a sprinter and I would almost bet they would be a very talented sprinter and vice versa. Because they were born with something that allowed them to be great.

This can all go back to nature vs nurture debate. I believe that most people are born with certain talents and skills that others are not.  That doesn't mean that person will have that best nurture around them to be great.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccotenj

nope... they have an innate ability to do something... everything after that (drive, conditioning, etc.) is developing that talent into something useful...

take my 100 meter example... you can have all the drive in the world, but it isn't going to change your basic ratio of fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscles... you can take a world class marathoner (who has a makeup that is highly biased to slow-twitch), and you would never make them into a world class sprinter (who requires a makeup that is highly biased to fast-twitch)...

i know this goes against the old "you can be anything you want to be" saw... sadly, it is reality...

I agree with you for the most part but take that world class marathon runner and start him or her at an early age to be a sprinter and I would almost bet they would be a very talented sprinter and vice versa. Because they were born with something that allowed them to be great.

This can all go back to nature vs nurture debate. I believe that most people are born with certain talents and skills that others are not.  That doesn't mean that person will have that best nurture around them to be great.

In general, I agree with your statement, but the specific example of a marathon runner and sprinter is not entirely accurate. Marathon runners are almost the exact opposite build as a sprinter.

I agree that people who have high athletic ability can generally pick up any sport and be somewhat competent at it.

[No Mulligans]

@Cody Book

If you think talent is not a factor then riddle me this.

Talent is made up of many things including physical stature...

How many 5'0" male golfers have won a major?  (Corey Pavin comes to mind but he was actually 5'9")

If you are 5'0" it doesn't matter how hard your work at it, you can't change into someone who is 6' tall.  Certainly you'd agree, all other things equal, that a 6 footer has an advantage over a 5 footer at golf.  And, if you agree with that then you just agreed that talent matters.

[Lihu]

@Cody Book

If you think talent is not a factor then riddle me this.

Talent is made up of many things including physical stature...

How many 5'0" male golfers have won a major?  (Corey Pavin comes to mind but he was actually 5'9")

If you are 5'0" it doesn't matter how hard your work at it, you can't change into someone who is 6' tall.  Certainly you'd agree, all other things equal, that a 6 footer has an advantage over a 5 footer at golf.  And, if you agree with that then you just agreed that talent matters.

I'm not sure that being 6 foot versus 5 foot if everything is equal is totally accurate. Are there more 6 foot people who hit farther than 5 footers? Sure.

However, once you reach a certain talent level there isn't a lot of difference overall. I know a lot of male golfers ranging from 6'10" down to 5'4" (maybe even shorter?), and they all play roughly the same game.

Ben Hogan was a lot smaller (Guessing actually 5'7"?) than everyone else he played against, but because of his talent he was able to beat everyone on the planet.

Gary player is only 5'6" (or shorter) and won majors .

[ccotenj]

[QUOTE name="No Mulligans" url="/t/83913/the-master-how-to-become-a-professional-golfer-thread/18#post_1186805"] @Cody Book If you think talent is not a factor then riddle me this. Talent is made up of many things including physical stature... How many 5'0" male golfers have won a major?  (Corey Pavin comes to mind but he was actually 5'9") If you are 5'0" it doesn't matter how hard your work at it, you can't change into someone who is 6' tall.  Certainly you'd agree, all other things equal, that a 6 footer has an advantage over a 5 footer at golf.  And, if you agree with that then you just agreed that talent matters. [/QUOTE] I'm not sure that being 6 foot versus 5 foot if everything is equal is totally accurate. Are there more 6 foot people who hit farther than 5 footers? Sure. However, once you reach a certain talent level there isn't a lot of difference overall. I know a lot of male golfers ranging from 6'10" down to 5'4" (maybe even shorter?), and they all play roughly the same game. Ben Hogan was a lot smaller (Guessing actually 5'7"?) than everyone else he played against, but because of his talent he was able to beat everyone on the planet. Gary player is only 5'6" (or shorter) and [URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Player]won majors[/URL].

and a certain 5'4" gentleman attends the champions dinner at augusta avery year... :-)

[rkim291968]

Ben Hogan was a lot smaller (Guessing actually 5'7"?) than everyone else he played against, but because of his talent he was able to beat everyone on the planet.

Gary player is only 5'6" (or shorter) and won majors

Yeah, but to be a PGA tour pro in this century, you can't be 5'6" and be successful unless your 5'6" frame is built like Shrek, with huge wingspan & arms.  I think the shortest PGA tour pro is 5'7" and there aren't too many of them either.   I did see a French guy in Euro tour who is 5'5 or 5'6".   But again, we are talking about very few here.   Most tour pros are about 6' plus or minus few inches.

[ccotenj]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/83913/the-master-how-to-become-a-professional-golfer-thread/18#post_1186814"]   Ben Hogan was a lot smaller (Guessing actually 5'7"?) than everyone else he played against, but because of his talent he was able to beat everyone on the planet. Gary player is only 5'6" (or shorter) and [URL=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Player]won majors[/URL] [/QUOTE] Yeah, but to be a PGA tour pro in this century, you can't be 5'6" and be successful unless your 5'6" frame is built like Shrek, with huge wingspan & arms.  I think the shortest PGA tour pro is 5'7" and there aren't too many of them either.   I did see a French guy in Euro tour who is 5'5 or 5'6".   But again, we are talking about very few here.   Most tour pros are about 6' plus or minus few inches.

that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though.... the male population as a whole would seem to fit that curve... seems like the great majority of males are somewhere within a few inches of my height (5'11") in either direction....

[rkim291968]

that's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy though.... the male population as a whole would seem to fit that curve... seems like the great majority of males are somewhere within a few inches of my height (5'11") in either direction....

We digressed.  I think the point some were making was that hard work alone cannot overcome what one is not born with (talent - physical attributes).