Match Play - what constitutes advice?

[Big C]

This weekend our men's club had our first round of our club match play championships.We play in foursomes, with two matches running concurrently in each group.  My good buddy (and frequent men's club partner) and I played in the same group against our respective opponents. We shared a cart and often discussed strategy, how our matches were going, etc.

During the course of our matches, a few scenarios came up where I wasn't sure how much information I could discuss without being in violation of the rules.

Scenario 1: My buddy is in the tree line with a partially obstructed shot to the green. He discusses the merits of going for the green vs. taking a safer punch out. I survey the scene and say "do what you want, but I'd play the punch out there." (There was some variant of that type of discussion - play safe vs. go for it - a couple of times during the round)

Scenario 2: We are on the tee box of a part 3 with a heavy wind at our back. My buddy asks me what club I am going to hit. I told him that I didn't think I could answer that question, but that I was going to play it like it was 170 yards to the flag. Am I ok to respond that way?

Scenario 3: My buddy and his opponent are in the rough pin high on opposite sides of the green. While the opponent walks to his ball, my buddy is standing over his chip preparing to hit it when I stop him and say. "Hold on, I think (opponent) is further away." And indeed he was. Technically I know this was not a penalty, but was this an etiquette violation? Should I have let him hit his chip and allow the opponent to recall the shot if he so desired?

Some of my confusion comes from the fact that the rules of golf talk mostly about opponents/partners (in the case of match play) and fellow competitors (in stroke play). But since we were neither, technically I suppose I was an outside agency relative to my buddy's match and vice versa. Obviously, I was rooting for him to win, but I don't want to behave in a manner that is outside of the spirit of the rules. That said, it''s really hard not to talk a litle strategy when you are sharing a cart with someone for 4-5 hours!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big C

During the course of our matches, a few scenarios came up where I wasn't sure how much information I could discuss without being in violation of the rules.

Scenario 1: My buddy is in the tree line with a partially obstructed shot to the green. He discusses the merits of going for the green vs. taking a safer punch out. I survey the scene and say "do what you want, but I'd play the punch out there." (There was some variant of that type of discussion - play safe vs. go for it - a couple of times during the round)

Some of my confusion comes from the fact that the rules of golf talk mostly about opponents/partners (in the case of match play) and fellow competitors (in stroke play). But since we were neither, technically I suppose I was an outside agency relative to my buddy's match and vice versa. Obviously, I was rooting for him to win, but I don't want to behave in a manner that is outside of the spirit of the rules. That said, it''s really hard not to talk a litle strategy when you are sharing a cart with someone for 4-5 hours!

That sounds a lot like advice to me.  Your suggestion could influence his play, and that is the definition of "advice".   Since you were an outside agency and not his opponent, neither of you would be penalized for that one breach, but if I had been present, I'd have told you that you weren't allowed to coach him during the match, regardless of your status in relationship to his match.  It was your friend's responsibility to make every effort to avoid allowing you to do so.

Quote:

Scenario 2: We are on the tee box of a par 3 with a heavy wind at our back. My buddy asks me what club I am going to hit. I told him that I didn't think I could answer that question, but that I was going to play it like it was 170 yards to the flag. Am I ok to respond that way?

He asked for advice from an outside agency, but since he asked he loses the hole even though you aren't part of his match.

Quote:

8-1 . Advice

During a stipulated round , a player must not:

a.

give advice to anyone in the competition playing on the course other than his partner , or

b.

ask for advice from anyone other than his partner or either of their caddies

Quote:

Scenario 3: My buddy and his opponent are in the rough pin high on opposite sides of the green. While the opponent walks to his ball, my buddy is standing over his chip preparing to hit it when I stop him and say. "Hold on, I think (opponent) is further away." And indeed he was. Technically I know this was not a penalty, but was this an etiquette violation? Should I have let him hit his chip and allow the opponent to recall the shot if he so desired?

Information on the rules or yardages is okay.

I'll be honest, you should have just kept your mouth shut and paid attention to your own match.  I'd have told him that he can't discuss his play with me because I'm not his partner or caddie.  I know you were just trying to be his friend, but you were not doing him any favors by responding his questions.  Your replies just encouraged him to continue his questionable behavior.  His opponent should have spoken up and told you to stay out of the match, but even better you should have know that without being told.

[Rulesman]

[Big C]

Thank you both for the replies. A couple of follow up questions

1. Is general strategy discussion (i.e. not shot specific) also taboo? In other words, discussing upcoming holes and how they might be played relative to match status?

2. Can I assume that my buddy would also be in breach on the par 3, even if he had asked "what distance are you playing this?" (instead of asking about a specific club)?

His opponent should have spoken up and told you to stay out of the match, but even better you should have know that without being told.

@Fourputt , even with a decent grasp on the rules, there is no substitute for on course experiences. When think I might have broken a rule (or at least been complicit in rule breaking), I will reflect on it afterward, seek advice from others and attempt to do better the next time. I think that's really all you can ask of somebody. To say that someone "should have" known something without being told isn't particularly constructive, nor is it accurate in many cases.

[turtleback]

Scenario 1) If your buddy asked your opinion, he is in breach

Scenario 2) Your buddy is in breach

Scenario 3) No breach

Are you sure on #3?  I think I disagree because as described the information tendered was not factual public information (it is 170 yards to the pin) but included an assessment of the conditions.  He didn't say it was a 170 shot he said he would play it as if it were a 170 yard shot.  That could mean a 190 shot but downwind, a 150 yard shot that was up hill or any combination thereof.  By saying he would play it as a 170 shot does't that take it out of the realm of pubic knowledge and becomes advice, IMO.

[Big C]

Are you sure on #3?  I think I disagree because as described the information tendered was not factual public information (it is 170 yards to the pin) but included an assessment of the conditions.  He didn't say it was a 170 shot he said he would play it as if it were a 170 yard shot.  That could mean a 190 shot but downwind, a 150 yard shot that was up hill or any combination thereof.  By saying he would play it as a 170 shot does't that take it out of the realm of pubic knowledge and becomes advice, IMO.

To clarify, scenario 3 was me interjecting who I thought was further away.

In scenario 2, my buddy asked me what club I would hit (loss of hole penalty, as I understand it) and I replied that I was playing it 170 yards (ok or no? Still not sure on this one.)

[David in FL]

Are you sure on #3?  I think I disagree because as described the information tendered was not factual public information (it is 170 yards to the pin) but included an assessment of the conditions.  He didn't say it was a 170 shot he said he would play it as if it were a 170 yard shot.  That could mean a 190 shot but downwind, a 150 yard shot that was up hill or any combination thereof.  By saying he would play it as a 170 shot does't that take it out of the realm of pubic knowledge and becomes advice, IMO.

That was scenario 2.... Edited....never mind, already answered.

[Fourputt]

Thank you both for the replies. A couple of follow up questions

1. Is general strategy discussion (i.e. not shot specific) also taboo? In other words, discussing upcoming holes and how they might be played relative to match status?

2. Can I assume that my buddy would also be in breach on the par 3, even if he had asked "what distance are you playing this?" (instead of asking about a specific club)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

His opponent should have spoken up and told you to stay out of the match, but even better you should have know that without being told.

@Fourputt, even with a decent grasp on the rules, there is no substitute for on course experiences. When think I might have broken a rule (or at least been complicit in rule breaking), I will reflect on it afterward, seek advice from others and attempt to do better the next time. I think that's really all you can ask of somebody. To say that someone "should have" known something without being told isn't particularly constructive, nor is it accurate in many cases.

The fact the you questioned it enough to post this thread tells me that you knew what was happening was at least borderline.  When you were not partners in the match, you should have just told him that you were not allowed to discuss any topics of gameplay.  If you are sure of the rules, then it's different because you know what is and is not allowed.  Being uncertain, the best thing to do is just say nothing about the game being played and confine any conversation to what has already happened (discussing club selection after everyone has played is allowable), or to non golf related topics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Are you sure on #3?  I think I disagree because as described the information tendered was not factual public information (it is 170 yards to the pin) but included an assessment of the conditions.  He didn't say it was a 170 shot he said he would play it as if it were a 170 yard shot.  That could mean a 190 shot but downwind, a 150 yard shot that was up hill or any combination thereof.  By saying he would play it as a 170 shot does't that take it out of the realm of pubic knowledge and becomes advice, IMO.

To clarify, scenario 3 was me interjecting who I thought was further away.

In scenario 2, my buddy asked me what club I would hit (loss of hole penalty, as I understand it) and I replied that I was playing it 170 yards (ok or no? Still not sure on this one.)

Not okay because it includes opinion, not just facts of public knowledge.  You may have factored in the wind and any elevation change, etc. to adjust the number you got from your GPS - those are areas where the player is required to use his own judgement.

[VOX]

This thread made me think of a small nit. Many people say foursome when they mean four-ball. Foursome may just mean four people together in normal parlance but in golf it has a specific meaning -- alternate shot format. Yet in the US I always hear people using "foursome" when they mean "four-ball".

[Fourputt]

This thread made me think of a small nit. Many people say foursome when they mean four-ball. Foursome may just mean four people together in normal parlance but in golf it has a specific meaning -- alternate shot format. Yet in the US I always hear people using "foursome" when they mean "four-ball".

It depends on whether one is discussing his game with his buddies or is discussing the rules.  Common vernacular uses "foursome" as a generic term referring to any four players in a group.  To back away from that usage would require retraining nearly the entire playing population - not really feasible.  It's enough to simply question what a person is talking about when he refers to playing a match in his "foursome" last Saturday.  If I ask if he was he actually playing match play, alternate shot, the answer so far has been 100% "No."  He always referring to a round played with four players playing stroke play.  Usually you can tell from the story being told what the format is.

The same is true of the word "opponent".  99% of the uses of that word are improperly referring to a stroke play fellow competitor, not to a match play opponent.  Most casual golfers don't know the terminology of the rules, or that of much of the game.  It's more common to use "pin" instead of "flagstick"; or "sand trap" instead of "bunker"; "cup" instead of "hole"; etc.  Those of us who have made a light study of the rules have to understand that while those terms need to be used properly when discussing the rules, there are general and less specific terms in common use by the casual player when discussing the game in general.

Even though I know the words as used by the rules, I switch back and forth depending on the topic and who I'm talking with.  I don't see the need to be excessively pedantic unless it's pertinent to the subject at hand.

[Golfingdad]

That sounds a lot like advice to me.  Your suggestion could influence his play, and that is the definition of "advice".   Since you were an outside agency and not his opponent, neither of you would be penalized for that one breach, but if I had been present, I'd have told you that you weren't allowed to coach him during the match, regardless of your status in relationship to his match.  It was your friend's responsibility to make every effort to avoid allowing you to do so.

He asked for advice from an outside agency, but since he asked he loses the hole even though you aren't part of his match.

Information on the rules or yardages is okay.

I'll be honest, you should have just kept your mouth shut and paid attention to your own match.  I'd have told him that he can't discuss his play with me because I'm not his partner or caddie.  I know you were just trying to be his friend, but you were not doing him any favors by responding his questions.  Your replies just encouraged him to continue his questionable behavior.  His opponent should have spoken up and told you to stay out of the match, but even better you should have know that without being told.

Slight hijack, however, I am pretty certain @Big C won't mind because this applies to him as well ... I'm wondering if the answers to his questions would change if the relationship between the two of them is slightly different.

Let's say one was lucky enough to be playing in a Ryder Cup style team competition , however, it wasn't practical to go out in separate pairs during the Sunday singles matches.  So the two guys sharing a cart are playing separate matches and aren't teammates in the sense that they're playing a four-ball or foursomes match, however, they are teammates in the overall competition.

Does that change in dynamic change anything in regards to @Big C 's original three scenarios?

Thanks in advance!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That sounds a lot like advice to me.  Your suggestion could influence his play, and that is the definition of "advice".   Since you were an outside agency and not his opponent, neither of you would be penalized for that one breach, but if I had been present, I'd have told you that you weren't allowed to coach him during the match, regardless of your status in relationship to his match.  It was your friend's responsibility to make every effort to avoid allowing you to do so.

He asked for advice from an outside agency, but since he asked he loses the hole even though you aren't part of his match.

Information on the rules or yardages is okay.

I'll be honest, you should have just kept your mouth shut and paid attention to your own match.  I'd have told him that he can't discuss his play with me because I'm not his partner or caddie.  I know you were just trying to be his friend, but you were not doing him any favors by responding his questions.  Your replies just encouraged him to continue his questionable behavior.  His opponent should have spoken up and told you to stay out of the match, but even better you should have know that without being told.

Slight hijack, however, I am pretty certain @Big C won't mind because this applies to him as well ... I'm wondering if the answers to his questions would change if the relationship between the two of them is slightly different.

Let's say one was lucky enough to be playing in a Ryder Cup style team competition , however, it wasn't practical to go out in separate pairs during the Sunday singles matches.  So the two guys sharing a cart are playing separate matches and aren't teammates in the sense that they're playing a four-ball or foursomes match, however, they are teammates in the overall competition.

Does that change in dynamic change anything in regards to @Big C 's original three scenarios?

Thanks in advance!

The note at the end of Rule 8 covers this:

Note: The Committee may, in the conditions of a team competition (Rule 33-1), permit each team to appoint one person who may give advice (including pointing out a line for putting) to members of that team. TheCommittee may establish conditions relating to the appointment and permitted conduct of that person, who must be identified to the Committee before giving advice.

If neither of them is that one person so designated, then no they aren't allowed to give or ask for advice from each other.  If this condition of the competition is not in force, then no one can give them advice, and they should make every effort to avoid any such occurrence.  They are not a side in this case, they are each part of a different match.

[Golfingdad]

The note at the end of Rule 8 covers this:

If neither of them is that one person so designated, then no they aren't allowed to give or ask for advice from each other.  If this condition of the competition is not in force, then no one can give them advice, and they should make every effort to avoid any such occurrence.  They are not a side in this case, they are each part of a different match.

Aha.  Much grass to you sir.

[Martyn W]

The note at the end of Rule 8 covers this:

If neither of them is that one person so designated, then no they aren't allowed to give or ask for advice from each other.  If this condition of the competition is not in force, then no one can give them advice, and they should make every effort to avoid any such occurrence.  They are not a side in this case, they are each part of a different match.

Rick, I have had this discussion before when officiating NCAA events. From their hardcard:

ADVICE IN TEAM COMPETITION – In accordance with the Note to Rule 8 of the Rules of Golf, each team may designate two coaches to give advice to members of that team. The coaches must be identified to the Committee before giving advice. A player may accept verbal and hand-signal advice from her institution's designated coaches only. Electronic communication, notes and any other items left behind by teammates and/or coaches for the purpose of giving advice are prohibited. Players must avoid communication between other players and spectators that could be deemed advice of any nature during the stipulated round. All institutional personnel, with the exception of the designated coaches, are considered spectators.

I contend that having TWO coaches does not comply with the Rule 8 note you posted. What do you think?

[Rulesman]

As the note specifically says 'one person' and reinforces it with 'that person', your contention is correct.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The note at the end of Rule 8 covers this:

If neither of them is that one person so designated, then no they aren't allowed to give or ask for advice from each other.  If this condition of the competition is not in force, then no one can give them advice, and they should make every effort to avoid any such occurrence.  They are not a side in this case, they are each part of a different match.

Rick, I have had this discussion before when officiating NCAA events. From their hardcard:

ADVICE IN TEAM COMPETITION – In accordance with the Note to Rule 8 of the Rules of Golf, each team may designate two coaches to give advice to members of that team. The coaches must be identified to the Committee before giving advice. A player may accept verbal and hand-signal advice from her institution's designated coaches only. Electronic communication, notes and any other items left behind by teammates and/or coaches for the purpose of giving advice are prohibited. Players must avoid communication between other players and spectators that could be deemed advice of any nature during the stipulated round. All institutional personnel, with the exception of the designated coaches, are considered spectators.

I contend that having TWO coaches does not comply with the Rule 8 note you posted. What do you think?

I agree, they are not abiding by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

Rick, I have had this discussion before when officiating NCAA events. From their hardcard: ADVICE IN TEAM COMPETITION – In accordance with the Note to Rule 8 of the Rules of Golf, each team may designate two coaches to give advice to members of that team. The coaches must be identified to the Committee before giving advice. A player may accept verbal and hand-signal advice from her institution's designated coaches only. Electronic communication, notes and any other items left behind by teammates and/or coaches for the purpose of giving advice are prohibited. Players must avoid communication between other players and spectators that could be deemed advice of any nature during the stipulated round. All institutional personnel, with the exception of the designated coaches, are considered spectators. I contend that having TWO coaches does not comply with the Rule 8 note you posted. What do you think?

I remember an issue at this years women's ncaas where this came up. One competitor signaled back to her teammate in the following match, and I don't remember the specifics other than it was deemed legal.

[Martyn W]

I remember an issue at this years women's ncaas where this came up. One competitor signaled back to her teammate in the following match, and I don't remember the specifics other than it was deemed legal.

Interestingly, the women have different rules to the men. In women's, coaches are allowed on greens and in bunkers, in men's this is not allowed.