Local Rule Establishing Drop Zone

[DeadMan]

I have a question for the rules gurus on here. I want to make sure that I have this right. On a hole in a course that I play at frequently for tournaments, the committee has established a local rule allowing for a drop zone. Because of the way the hole is set up, it's hard to tell off the tee exactly where you lost a ball if you lose a ball on this hole. So they established a drop zone to make it easier. The problem is that they made it applicable to any type of lost ball, instead of just one lost in a hazard. I want to make sure that they can't actually do that. The only thing they could do is establish a drop zone for balls lost in a hazard, right? I'm getting that from Appendix I, Part A, section 6 of the RoG.

I've attached a drawing of the hole for ease. The DZ is outlined in black. Red and yellow hazard lines marked. The outline in white is an area where lost balls outside of the hazard occur frequently; it's an area of long grass where it is difficult to find balls (I've lost a couple in there).

The reason I'm asking is that the VP of the club and I were arguing about it. We almost had a situation where he lost a ball in the white area but wanted to play a provisional from the DZ, which I said he couldn't do. Fortunately, we found his ball and didn't have to argue about it after the round. But I wanted to make sure that I'm right, or figure out why I'm wrong if I'm wrong.

Also, an option would be to mark the long grass as a lateral water hazard to avoid situations like this, right? Although that might be stretching the definition of a water hazard, it would clear up any confusion. And as a practical matter, off the tee, it is hard to tell if a ball in that area went into the hazard.

[Golfingdad]

Not a rules expert, just trying to learn, but that seems to me like the drop zone there would or should be only for the yellow water hazard.

Obviously you are correct that you can't do anything but re-tee if you lose a ball outside of a hazard, and I can't see why you would want to go so far back if you hit into the lateral hazard when you have the 2 club lengths option.

The other problem I see is with the course set-up.  I know that @Fourputt has talked about this before, but it is really penal, to the point of unfair, for an area of such thick grass to border a lateral hazard.  If it's "hard to tell if a ball in that area" enters the hazard, then you can never be virtually certain and will always have to re-hit.  I think they should either extend that hazard line such that it includes the heavy rough or if that's not practical, then mow that grass down so there is less confusion about balls in the hazard possibly being lost outside of it.

[DeadMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Not a rules expert, just trying to learn, but that seems to me like the drop zone there would or should be only for the yellow water hazard.

Obviously you are correct that you can't do anything but re-tee if you lose a ball outside of a hazard, and I can't see why you would want to go so far back if you hit into the lateral hazard when you have the 2 club lengths option.

The other problem I see is with the course set-up.  I know that @Fourputt has talked about this before, but it is really penal, to the point of unfair, for an area of such thick grass to border a lateral hazard.  If it's "hard to tell if a ball in that area" enters the hazard, then you can never be virtually certain and will always have to re-hit.  I think they should either extend that hazard line such that it includes the heavy rough or if that's not practical, then mow that grass down so there is less confusion about balls in the hazard possibly being lost outside of it.

Well, the rule I talked about is as follows:

Quote:

6. Dropping Zones

Establishing special areas on which balls may or must be dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

So I think it could be used for the lateral water hazards there - because it's not feasible to see where your ball croseds the margin on the right hand side of the beginning part of the later water hazard. Without the drop zone, I think you'd have to treat it as a lost ball in that case and re-tee (although I could be wrong there). But, I daresay the intent of the local rule is to let people who lose a ball in that white area I marked play a provisional from the drop zone.

As to your last paragraph, I agree. The other option is to get the course to cut down the grass so balls don't get lost there. I think they don't do that because it's a different type of grass than the rough and fairway, so it wouldn't be as consistent. It's a type of grass that they just let grow all over the course.

[Dave2512]

How can most of the hole be marked a hazard? I've played Fox Hollow before and don't remember that.

[DeadMan]

How can most of the hole be marked a hazard? I've played Fox Hollow before and don't remember that.

There are creeks on both sides of the hole, plus between the tee box and the fairway. And then that lake. It's a low area below a reservoir, so there is a lot of water running through there. The only area that might be inappropriately marked is behind the green.

That size does not show how big the actual hole is. The fairway, at the point before the bunkers, is 50 yards wide. It takes a pretty terrible shot to reach the hazard lines (although since I don't hook the ball, I don't flirt with half of the hazards). But it does not take that awful of a shot to reach the long grass outlined in white.

[ColinL]

You cannot have a drop zone for a lost ball.  The player must play from where he played his previous stroke. (Rule 27-1c)

You cannot mark an area of just long grass as a lateral water hazard.  It has to meet the definition. ( Decision 33-8/35)

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-35

[DeadMan]

You cannot have a drop zone for a lost ball.  The player must play from where he played his previous stroke. (Rule 27-1c)

You cannot mark an area of just long grass as a lateral water hazard.  It has to meet the definition. ( Decision 33-8/35)

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-35

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the drop zone.

On the long grass being marked as a water hazard, couldn't you say that it's part of the creek that runs on the other side of the cart path? In the picture, the creek is under the trees over there. Like I said, it might be (or probably is) stretching it, but there is water nearby.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinL

You cannot mark an area of just long grass as a lateral water hazard.  It has to meet the definition. ( Decision 33-8/35)

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-35

This decision refers to an area of boulders and long grass next to a fairway.  It doesn't take into account that we're talking about an area of long grass that is immediately adjacent to a hazard.  What are the rules for defining the exact limits of a hazard?

NOTE:  A little research and I found the answer:

Quote:

33-2a/4

Where to Place Lines or Stakes Defining Margin of Water Hazard

Lines and stakes defining the margins of a water hazard should be placed as nearly as possible along the natural limits of the hazard, i.e., where the ground breaks down to form the depression containing the water. See also Decision 26-1/19 .

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadMan

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the drop zone.

On the long grass being marked as a water hazard, couldn't you say that it's part of the creek that runs on the other side of the cart path? In the picture, the creek is under the trees over there. Like I said, it might be (or probably is) stretching it, but there is water nearby.

That was going to be my question too.  You're not arbitrarily marking an area of only long grass as a hazard, you're just extending the limits of an already existing hazard to include said area. Since I wrote that but before I posted, I found the above decision.  So the answer then becomes, to me, that they find a way to make it harder to lose a ball so close to a lateral hazard by either mowing the grass or cutting down trees to make that area viewable from the tee. :)

As it is, since you can't see the hazard from the tee, you might as well mark the whole area OB, no?  Because you can never be virtually certain your ball isn't in the long grass, so you have to go back and re-tee.

[DrvFrShow]

I've attached a drawing of the hole for ease. The DZ is outlined in black. Red and yellow hazard lines marked. The outline in white is an area where lost balls outside of the hazard occur frequently; it's an area of long grass where it is difficult to find balls (I've lost a couple in there).

So the tee is at the top and the green is at the bottom, right? I'd ask them to mow down the white area to second cut height, and that would eliminate a lot of the lost ball problems. The Drop Zone only should apply to balls in the yellow hazard.

[DeadMan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrvFrShow

So the tee is at the top and the green is at the bottom, right?

Correct.

Quote:

I'd ask them to mow down the white area to second cut height, and that would eliminate a lot of the lost ball problems. The Drop Zone only should apply to balls in the yellow hazard.

You're probably right about that being the ideal solution. Question, though, why should the drop zone only apply to the yellow hazard? The rule I quoted says both lateral water hazard, too. What am I missing?

[Golfingdad]

Question, though, why should the drop zone only apply to the yellow hazard? The rule I quoted says both lateral water hazard, too. What am I missing?

I don't know, I can't find anything either.

I can't imagine, though, why you'd want to go back there though, when you have the two club lengths option.

[DrvFrShow]

Well, I can't really see any reason you'd want to use the drop zone elsewhere especially once that grass is cut for one thing. The only thing about the drop zone is that it hacks up the ladies tee, if I'm not correct.

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't know, I can't find anything either.

I can't imagine, though, why you'd want to go back there though, when you have the two club lengths option.

It looks like you can use a drop zone for an assortment of options,

Quote:

6. Dropping Zones

Establishing special areas on which balls may or must be dropped when it is not feasible or practicable to proceed exactly in conformity with Rule 24-2b or 24-3 (Immovable Obstruction), Rule 25-1b or 25-1c (Abnormal Ground Conditions), Rule 25-3 (Wrong Putting Green), Rule 26-1 (Water Hazards and Lateral Water Hazards) or Rule 28 (Ball Unplayable).

for lateral water hazards,

Quote:

3-2a/9

Part of Lateral Water Hazard Where Impossible to Drop Not Nearer Hole

If part of a lateral water hazard at the side of a putting green is so configured that it may be impossible to drop a ball within two club-lengths of the point where the ball last crossed the hazard margin without dropping nearer the hole than that point, the following is suggested:

(1) the part of the hazard where the situation exists should be distinctively marked;

(2) one or more dropping zones should be established; and

(3) a Local Rule should state that, if a ball in the lateral water hazard last crossed the margin of the hazard in the marked area, the player may, under penalty of one stroke, drop a ball in the dropping zone or, if more than one dropping zone has been established, in the nearest dropping zone.

[DeadMan]

Well, I can't really see any reason you'd want to use the drop zone elsewhere especially once that grass is cut for one thing. The only thing about the drop zone is that it hacks up the ladies tee, if I'm not correct.

The only situation where you'd want that is the lateral hazard just beyond the yellow hazard on the left side of the picture. There's not really a good place to drop over there because of the cart path and the long grass. Plus, you can't really tell where the ball went into the hazard over there (it is obvious sometimes that it is not in the long grass with a really bad slice).

[rogolf]

It looks like you can use a drop zone for an assortment of options,

for lateral water hazards,

But never for Rule 27-1 (ball lost or out of bounds, stroke and distance) unless the last stroke was made from the drop zone.

[DrvFrShow]

That looks like a  real nasty hole. You have to hit a draw off the tee or hit a shorter club than a driver just to make sure you don't go too far right because you only have narrow shot because  of  the trees on your left.

I  think another solution would  be to cut down those trees obstructing the approach to the fairway and give a more open shot. I'm sure many golfers would not mourn their absence. If that were kept clear people would be aiming their shots more left, and their balls wouldn't be going so far right to begin with. That is a horrible tee set up.

[DeadMan]

That looks like a  real nasty hole. You have to hit a draw off the tee or hit a shorter club than a driver just to make sure you don't go too far right because you only have narrow shot because  of  the trees on your left.

I  think another solution would  be to cut down those trees obstructing the approach to the fairway and give a more open shot. I'm sure many golfers would not mourn their absence. If that were kept clear people would be aiming their shots more left, and their balls wouldn't be going so far right to begin with. That is a horrible tee set up.

It looks a lot worse on that picture than it actually is. The opening is not narrow at all - probably 40-50 yards. And from the blue tees, it's around a 300 yard drive to get to the water. As I said, the fairway is about 50 yards wide at its widest point. It's pretty much a 3 wood, 8/9 iron hole. It looks more intimidating from the tee than it is really. The only really difficult part from the mens' tee is the 200 yard carry to the fairway.

That said, I always seem to go right on this hole for whatever reason. It can easily bite you, one of many holes on this course that can. But if you can get off the tee without losing a ball, it's not that bad.

[Dave2512]

FWIW this course is typical new Colorado construction, not really a resort course because it's not a vacation destination but plays like one. I avoid these types of courses because they are silly layouts with a bunch of misplaced for lack of a better word(s) ESA type areas that only serve to make the course visually interesting because in it's natural state CO is mostly arid. Most of the courses in that part of the city are like this, anything built post park style era in CO is pretty much not what CO really looks like. Honestly I am surprised that area in question is not marked ESA, we have A LOT of that here on modern courses, and the courses are always mismarked or vaguely marked. They should probably just red/green stake it if it is blind from the tee. It's a freaking pace killer for all the reasons it's confusing in the OP. I don't remember this hole but I've see this stuff all the time. You could hit your ball in that direction and have no clue where it really landed. You also see a lot of strange DZ's and local rules here. I play one course with a DZ on the green side of a hazard of par 3's with nothing but water between tees and greens and a couple have DZ's on both sides of yellow stakes. Legit or not there to prevent people going all Tin Cup. I've seen people hit two, three balls into the same pond when they don't use the DZ. Nobody wants to watch somebody take a 10 on a par 3.