Religion vs. Atheism Thread

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pretzel

I wouldn't say 99% of cases, but I would call it a majority. My personal view is that really the core idea from each of them, and the entity, is the same and I know a number of other people that I would guesstimate at around 15-20% of those I know with Christian faith hold the same view.

I personally see the Norse, Hindu, and Greek views as myths due to their direct contradiction with my belief system. In that way you could argue I believe that my religion is the "one true religion" in that I don't believe other entities exist or have influence, but I'm alright with that and honest about it. I don't believe there is validity in those religions in terms of whether their entities exist, but I do recognize that there are a large number of people (in the case of Hinduism) that do. I just happen to disagree with them.

So do you believe that believers in these myths are worshipping false gods and will be condemned?

It's the materialistic worship that is objected to more than anything else. Love of materialistic things is one sure path to sin.

[Dave2512]

Ok so two posters, one Muslim, one Christian, say that their religion is the true and only religion.

Why? What makes your religion the only one? What are non believers in your religion missing?

And does your religion have more evidence than any other religion other than "you feel it is right?"

Conditioning. People believe stuff like this because they are taught to, some religions more aggressive with it than others. Some of it carried through centuries of modernism that makes it unnecessary because the original message was as much about controlling people as an actual belief. You don't even need to use a Muslim vs. Christian comparison. You'll find Christians that disagree with other Christian branches even if how they worship is similar.

OT: This shit would bring people to tears in philosophical classes I attended ( I went to a Jesuit university). Most of the time from similar questions asked by the professor. The typical answer was rarely more than "because that's what I believe" and what they believe is what they were taught.

[Abu3baid]

Ok so two posters, one Muslim, one Christian, say that their religion is the true and only religion. Why? What makes your religion the only one? What are non believers in your religion missing? And does your religion have more evidence than any other religion other than "you feel it is right?"

No need to discuss which one is more right at the moment at all.. That's not the topic of the thread.. Both Muslims and Christians agree that there is a God vs. the atheist who does not.. Basically why does it matter to an athiest who is right and who is wrong? He doesn't believe in God so does it really matter? Maybe you can let us know what happens to us after we die?

[Pretzel]

Ok so two posters, one Muslim, one Christian, say that their religion is the true and only religion.

Why? What makes your religion the only one? What are non believers in your religion missing?

And does your religion have more evidence than any other religion other than "you feel it is right?"

I never said mine was the one true religion. I said it was in a sense because I believe that the only "correct" religions are those that are, as you describe them, Abrahamic and have the same core ideal of worshiping the same entity.

Non believers in my view are missing out on anything that comes after life. They get the short end of the stick in that regard. I don't decide that, that's "above my pay grade" as it were, but that's the way it has been decided according to my beliefs.

I pointed out my personal evidence, that 3 "rival" group have long changed history books yet the core ideal of the same entity remains. Beyond that it comes down to a certain level of personal choice. You can choose to believe what you want to believe, and I have made my choice. You have made yours, whatever it may be, and as much as I'd like for it to align with my choice I can't force it upon you. Hence the reason religious people have "faith", since no one religion can be scientifically proven over the others, and the same goes for a lack of religion altogether.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duff McGee

Ok so two posters, one Muslim, one Christian, say that their religion is the true and only religion.

Why? What makes your religion the only one? What are non believers in your religion missing?

And does your religion have more evidence than any other religion other than "you feel it is right?"

No need to discuss which one is more right at the moment at all.. That's not the topic of the thread.. Both Muslims and Christians agree that there is a God vs. the atheist who does not.. Basically why does it matter to an athiest who is right and who is wrong? He doesn't believe in God so does it really matter?

Maybe you can let us know what happens to us after we die?

True.

[billchao]

@Duff McGee I just want to point out that Buddhists don't worship God or gods and whether they exist or not really doesn't matter to them (nor does the question of creation). It would seem to me that they're not really a part of this discussion. A lot of my core values stem from Buddhist traditions though I don't practice so I really can't speak to the specifics of Buddhism itself, but I just want to know:

Why do atheists care so much about proving something that they don't believe in doesn't exist?

I read some of the back and forth in the other thread and I just want to know how those who consider themselves atheist can be so convinced in the nonexistence of God (or gods). Just because someone cannot prove to you that they exist does not prove nonexistence. Gravity existed before Isaac Newton published his findings. Just a little over 50 years ago, scientists were convinced that no vertebrate life could exist in the hadopelagic zone in the ocean. Even today, people are discovering all sorts of things about the universe that was never known or could have been imagined before. Just because we lack the ability to explain prove something currently does not mean it does not exist.

I challenge you to prove that God (or gods) doesn't exist. You can't. Your responses would follow the same logic that the believers who you criticize use: it's based on the strength of your respective convictions.

[mmoan2]

Islam, Catholicism, Christianity, and Mormonism are all derived from the events of the Old Testament with the main differences, at least that I can see as a Christian viewing the others from the surface, appearing to be based around who is a savior or prophet and then branching out from there. Islam has the prophet Muhammad. Catholicism, as far as I can tell, is mostly Christianity minus the New Testament. Christianity obviously has Jesus. Mormonism has Joseph Smith who wrote the Book of Mormon apparently from divine directive (found golden plates buried).

The thing is, all of these people are worshipping the same entity. It's the same core religion viewed from different perspectives. That's why I don't view Christianity as the only "true" religion, because I can name 3 other major religions that are, at their core with who they believe in, the same as mine. They just have different perspectives on history and how to go about worship etc.

Not sure where you got this from, but the New Testament is as important to Catholicism as any other Christian sect. Every Catholic mass has two readings from the New Testament followed by the priest giving a homily (speech) interpreting the readings and applying them to daily life. "Christianity" vs. Catholicism was founded during the Protestant Reformation when various believers - Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli - reinterpreted the Bible and the faith in various ways differing from traditional Catholicism. Just felt the need to mention that.

[mmoan2]

Conditioning. People believe stuff like this because they are taught to, some religions more aggressive with it than others. Some of it carried through centuries of modernism that makes it unnecessary because the original message was as much about controlling people as an actual belief. You don't even need to use a Muslim vs. Christian comparison. You'll find Christians that disagree with other Christian branches even if how they worship is similar.

OT: This shit would bring people to tears in philosophical classes I attended ( I went to a Jesuit university). Most of the time from similar questions asked by the professor. The typical answer was rarely more than "because that's what I believe" and what they believe is what they were taught.

I'll drink to that. I majored in philosophy at a Jesuit university!

[Pretzel]

Not sure where you got this from, but the New Testament is as important to Catholicism as any other Christian sect. Every Catholic mass has two readings from the New Testament followed by the priest giving a homily (speech) interpreting the readings and applying them to daily life. "Christianity" vs. Catholicism was founded during the Protestant Reformation when various believers - Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli - reinterpreted the Bible and the faith in various ways differing from traditional Catholicism. Just felt the need to mention that.

My bad, this whole time I meant Judaism instead of Catholicism. I just had the two terms crossed in my head!

I apologize for the confusion and any offense it may have caused.

[mmoan2]

My bad, this whole time I meant Judaism instead of Catholicism. I just had the two terms crossed in my head!

I apologize for the confusion and any offense it may have caused.

Oh, no offense. Now I'm with you. I just was a little confused.

[Dave2512]

I'll drink to that. I majored in philosophy at a Jesuit university!

I knew I was in for trouble the first day of Critical Thinking. Even that had people sobbing when we got into what little philosophy there was. Some of what was required scarred some forever I fear.

[mmoan2]

I knew I was in for trouble the first day of Critical Thinking. Even that had people sobbing when we got into what little philosophy there was. Some of what was required scarred some forever I fear.

Only good scars, though Philosophy is a tough sell in a market economy, but everyone IMO would do well to at least try some ethics or political phil classes. The metaphysics stuff gets a little wacky.

[saevel25]

@Duff McGee I just want to point out that Buddhists don't worship God or gods and whether they exist or not really doesn't matter to them (nor does the question of creation). It would seem to me that they're not really a part of this discussion. A lot of my core values stem from Buddhist traditions though I don't practice so I really can't speak to the specifics of Buddhism itself, but I just want to know:

Why do atheists care so much about proving something that they don't believe in doesn't exist?

His argument seems that being an Atheist allows them the right to demand that non-Atheists prove the existence of god. He's not going to make a claim because then the burden of proof belongs to him. Atheists get to sit back and judge people and make demands of people for some unknown reason other than probably entitlement or elitism. I would like to know on a personal level why an Atheist gets so bent out of shape over religious stuff.

In the end. Even if the Bible is a work of fiction or partial fiction. Even if it was written by religious radicals of their time. It doesn't disprove a God. I can easily say that the Bible is just Human's first attempt to try to grasp God on some small insignificant level. History is littered with embellished stories. In the end, it doesn't disprove a God. I can easily say that science just proves the mechanisms by which God makes the world work.

Still, a lot of teachings in the bible are very applicable to daily life. If all people do are focusing on the miracles and supernatural then they are missing some great life lessons.

Don't judge people

Forgiveness is a powerful tool not just for the person being forgiven but for the person doing the forgiving.

Love thy neighbor as thyself

Being accepting of others

Don't live in excess

A lot of common sense, wise advice comes from the bible. Yet Atheists sit back and focus on the "ooh, aaah" events of the bible like it just drives them ever loving bonkers.

In the end both sides are hypocritical about it.

How about this. All religious people, unless God comes down and bitch slaps an Atheist upside his head than leave the Atheists alone. They have the right to believe what they want. Atheists, unless you find proof that God does not exists, then let the religious people live their lives how they want. If a religious person shows his faith in his daily life, then suck it up and move on. In the end all of this is just your own person problem with the fact you just can't let people believe what they want. It's not a religious problem, it's not an Atheist problem. It's an unaccepting, judgement individual douchebaggery problem that people can't just let it go and accept that people are going to believe or not believe in what they want.

In the end suck it up and move on. There are far more important matters in life than being right on this issue. Like me calling my landlady to get my fricken dishwasher fixed.

[billchao]

I can easily say that science just proves the mechanisms by which God makes the world work.

I've had discussions with people about this and that's generally my position. Atheists tend to point to science and claim that science disproves the existence of God, which it does not. Science explains a lot of things people once believed as superstitions, but I've yet to see scientific proof of the nonexistence of God (or gods).

In the end both sides are hypocritical about it.

I also agree with this, but hypocritical isn't quite the word I'd use. Closed-minded, maybe, but that's really to be expected with this topic. The point is, both sides believe in opposing ideas and use reasoning to support their positions. They're very similar in that way and I tried to point that out with my post.

In the end suck it up and move on. There are far more important matters in life than being right on this issue. Like me calling my landlady to get my fricken dishwasher fixed.

Sorry, Matt. A dishwasher is a luxury item and not a priority

[Duff McGee]

I never said mine was the one true religion. I said it was [U] in a sense [/U] because I believe that the only "correct" religions are those that are, as you describe them, Abrahamic and have the same core ideal of worshiping the same entity. Non believers in my view are missing out on anything that comes after life. They get the short end of the stick in that regard. I don't decide that, that's "above my pay grade" as it were, but that's the way it has been decided according to my beliefs. I pointed out my personal evidence, that 3 "rival" group have long changed history books yet the core ideal of the same entity remains. Beyond that it comes down to a certain level of personal choice. You can choose to believe what you want to believe, and I have made my choice. You have made yours, whatever it may be, and as much as I'd like for it to align with my choice I can't force it upon you. Hence the reason religious people have "faith", since no one religion can be scientifically proven over the others, and the same goes for a lack of religion altogether.

1) you are a Christian, correct? Do you believe Muslims go to heaven even though they do not accept Christ as Lord and Savior? It is extremely relevant to this discussion, actually, because atheists don't believe in any god. You are an atheist to thousands of gods. I'm just an atheist to one more than you. 2) again, atheists are not asking for "proof." We are merely asking for a tiny bit of supporting evidence.

[Duff McGee]

@Duff McGee I just want to point out that Buddhists don't worship God or gods and whether they exist or not really doesn't matter to them (nor does the question of creation). It would seem to me that they're not really a part of this discussion. A lot of my core values stem from Buddhist traditions though I don't practice so I really can't speak to the specifics of Buddhism itself, but I just want to know: Why do atheists care so much about proving something that they don't believe in doesn't exist? I read some of the back and forth in the other thread and I just want to know how those who consider themselves atheist can be so convinced in the nonexistence of God (or gods). Just because someone cannot prove to you that they exist does not prove nonexistence. Gravity existed before Isaac Newton published his findings. Just a little over 50 years ago, scientists were convinced that no vertebrate life could exist in the hadopelagic zone in the ocean. Even today, people are discovering all sorts of things about the universe that was never known or could have been imagined before. Just because we lack the ability to explain prove something currently does not mean it does not exist. I challenge you to prove that God (or gods) doesn't exist. You can't. Your responses would follow the same logic that the believers who you criticize use: it's based on the strength of your respective convictions.

You say you have read through the threads, yet you are still making two HUGE mistakes: 1) I've already shown that the burden of proof is on theists that a God exists and not on atheists to "disprove God." How many examples do I have to give before people understand this? Prove to me that there aren't goblins that come into your house and steal socks from your laundry. 2) most atheists do not demand proof. We are asking for SOME evidence. Just a little evidence.

[Pretzel]

The answer to this one is I don't know. I don't know enough about Islam to formulate an educated opinion on that.

John 14:6 states "Jesus answered, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.' "

I know that Islam still recognizes him as a prophet, rather than the savior. To what extent this goes, and exactly what was meant by the passage (which was itself an interpretation of what one disciple heard, making it more unclear) I don't exactly know because I haven't delved very deep into theology.

You asked for proof with this quote:

Why do you think those are myths and that yours is real?

The only answer besides, "Because it's what I believe" would be me giving you some form of proof as to why my religion is correct. You did indeed ask for proof, even if that wasn't your intent.

You say you have read through the threads, yet you are still making two HUGE mistakes:

1) I've already shown that the burden of proof is on theists that a God exists and not on atheists to "disprove God." How many examples do I have to give before people understand this? Prove to me that there aren't goblins that come into your house and steal socks from your laundry.

2) most atheists do not demand proof. We are asking for SOME evidence. Just a little evidence.

1) Since it is in another thread, would you mind posting your argument here for all to see in the thread specifically meant to discuss the idea?

2) If this is your stance, there is likely nothing I could say that I haven't already said earlier that would sway you. I truly have no hard evidence, just my faith and my own personal anecdotes that provide reason for me to keep believing. This thread will merely go in circles if you insist upon asking for hard evidence, the same way that you would be unable to procure hard evidence that a deity in some form is nonexistent.

[Golfingdad]

I would like to know on a personal level why an Atheist gets so bent out of shape over religious stuff.

I think you made a great post and agree with almost all of what you said.  And I certainly don't know all the answers to the above question, but I could venture a guess as to one of them ... it's that so much stuff that we see that is wrong with the world is rooted in religion.  Everything to do with the issues in the Middle East since the dawn of time practically, all terrorism, the gay marriage fight, etc, etc.  A lot of atheists (I imagine) believe that without religion, none of these problems would exist or they'd be not nearly as severe.

Like me calling my landlady to get my fricken dishwasher fixed.

That happens to be against her religion. Thems the breaks.

2) again, atheists are not asking for "proof." We are merely asking for a tiny bit of supporting evidence.

Are you sure?  I don't know that most athiests are asking for anything.  I think most would just like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to adhere to their "No Soliciting" signs, and would like Fox News to stop whining about the "War On Christmas," but other than that, I'm going to say that they probably just want to mind their own business and be left alone.

Just a guess, BTW, as I am not an atheist nor do I know any.