Are 'The Voice' and "American Idol' destroying good singing?

[No Mulligans]

On 12/16/2015 at 5:08 AM, Ernest Jones said:

So, J-Lo doesn't know what a pentagon in scale is? What about the greaser sitting next to her, he's never heard of the pentatonic scale either? 

I'm calling BS on that scene. Made for TV. 

It's pretty believable that J-Lo doesn't know a pentatonic scale is (not a pentagon scale? as you wrote).  Unless someone were to study improvisation theory on an instrument you wouldn't need to know.  Many vocalists just rely on their ears.

The "greaser" as you put it is Keith Urban and he definitely knows what a pentatonic scale is and nowhere in that video does it indicate that he doesn't.

On 12/16/2015 at 7:43 AM, Golfingdad said:

You're being generous.  That show (should've) died many seasons ago.

It's a free market system.  American Idol was on for so many years because it was so highly rated.  For many of the years American Idol had the highest # of viewers of the week for the Wednesday show and the 2nd highest number of viewers of the week for the Thursday show.  I guess it is no longer doing well and thus is being taken off the air.

22 hours ago, iacas said:

In the little bits I've seen, I think Harry Connick Jr. does a great job. He's not just the Paula/JLo "everyone is great!" model. He's actually knowledgeable and gives good critiques.

Harry is an incredible talented musician and I agree he does a great job.

[Ernest Jones]

30 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

It's pretty believable that J-Lo doesn't know a pentatonic scale is (not a pentagon scale? as you wrote).  Unless someone were to study improvisation theory on an instrument you wouldn't need to know.  Many vocalists just rely on their ears.

The "greaser" as you put it is Keith Urban and he definitely knows what a pentatonic scale is and nowhere in that video does it indicate that he doesn't.

It's a free market system.  American Idol was on for so many years because it was so highly rated.  For many of the years American Idol had the highest # of viewers of the week for the Wednesday show and the 2nd highest number of viewers of the week for the Thursday show.  I guess it is no longer doing well and thus is being taken off the air.

Harry is an incredible talented musician and I agree he does a great job.

Lol. Pentagon was auto-correct's version. The pentatonic scale is usually one of the first things people learn about music once they get beyond the "cowboy" chords on a guitar.  Generally, relative minor is the starting point. Sadly, many players never really evolve beyond it. Which is why many players suck at improvising, they don't understand modes or how to "think in G but blow in D" as some jazz dude once put it.  I'm sure Keith Urban does know all about it but he seemed to be playing dumb about it for the sake of "good" television. I suspect J-Lo was as well. Hard to believe someone could have real career in music without ever hearing about it until Harry enlightens them on TV. 

[mdl]

I'm fully on board with not liking over singing, or generally note flurries for the show off element, rather than because that's the right set of notes for the space.  And I fully agree that a lot of contestants on those shows aren't mature/talented enough to kill it with a restrained version, so they try to run all over the place to seem impressive.

But I have to disagree that Mariah + O Holy Night = over singing.  That's one of the best recordings of that song (one of my favorite Christmas songs) in my opinion.  Sure, it doesn't sound like portentous 19th century churchman version, but I'm not super into that style of christmas carol anyway.  Often feels not elegant and understated but stodgy and uncreative and boring to me.

[dak4n6]

2 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Lol. Pentagon was auto-correct's version. The pentatonic scale is usually one of the first things people learn about music once they get beyond the "cowboy" chords on a guitar.  Generally, relative minor is the starting point. Sadly, many players never really evolve beyond it. Which is why many players suck at improvising, they don't understand modes or how to "think in G but blow in D" as some jazz dude once put it.  I'm sure Keith Urban does know all about it but he seemed to be playing dumb about it for the sake of "good" television. I suspect J-Lo was as well. Hard to believe someone could have real career in music without ever hearing about it until Harry enlightens them on TV. 

Yes, Keith was staying out of the fray, I'm not sure JLo could actually sing a pentatonic scale in a certain key. As Mulligans said, most vocalists when they make a trill or run just trust feel and their ears, and thus usually run on a major or minor scale. The pentatonic has more 'open space' between between notes than those other scales and is not as immediately obvious to a vocalist. To a guitar player though, once you are shown a pentatonic scale you can then visualize those big 4 fret gaps between notes so it's actually easier for us...

[Ernest Jones]

12 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Yes, Keith was staying out of the fray, I'm not sure JLo could actually sing a pentatonic scale in a certain key. As Mulligans said, most vocalists when they make a trill or run just trust feel and their ears, and thus usually run on a major or minor scale. The pentatonic has more 'open space' between between notes than those other scales and is not as immediately obvious to a vocalist. To a guitar player though, once you are shown a pentatonic scale you can then visualize those big 4 fret gaps between notes so it's actually easier for us...

Aside from the pain of developing calluses, everything is easier for guitar players! We can learn one shape and transpose it all over the fretboard, pianist need to learn 12 shapes for every one of ours!

For example, I can transpose any song to any key simply by shifting my position on the fretboard, for a pianist, it's almost like they have to re-learn the song. 

[dak4n6]

3 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Aside from the pain of developing calluses, everything is easier for guitar players! We can learn one shape and transpose it all over the fretboard, pianist need to learn 12 shapes for every one of ours!

For example, I can transpose any song to any key simply by shifting my position on the fretboard, for a pianist, it's almost like they have to re-learn the song. 

True. I guess this is why I could never self-learn keys to any satisfaction the way I learned guitar. When you change keys, many of the notes shift from white keys to black and vs versa, totally confusing.

[Ernest Jones]

56 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

True. I guess this is why I could never self-learn keys to any satisfaction the way I learned guitar. When you change keys, many of the notes shift from white keys to black and vs versa, totally confusing.

Absolutely. That is why my kids are in piano lessons and I've told them that I won't show them anything on a guitar until they are proficient on a piano. When you learn piano you learn the theory and mathematics of music as a side effect. Or you can learn to rock out on guitar and never understand the underlying theory of it all, which is what I did. I'd rather they have a more complete understanding of music than I have.

I don't know if they will be musicians but I'd like them to learn the language so they have it.

[dak4n6]

2 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Absolutely. That is why my kids are in piano lessons and I've told them that I won't show them anything on a guitar until they are proficient on a piano. When you learn piano you learn the theory and mathematics of music as a side effect. Or you can learn to rock out on guitar and never understand the underlying theory of it all, which is what I did. I'd rather they have a more complete understanding of music than I have.

I don't know if they will be musicians but I'd like them to learn the language so they have it.

Yeah, me too. Never took a lesson. Just learned over time what patterns and fingerings produced what kind of sound or effect. Although, there is an up side to that. I have played with some 'schooled' guitar players that will only play a certain scale and mode if a certain chord or chord sequence is being played, and that can be predictable and restrictive.

I always remember one time I was jamming with a bass player, Berkley school of music graduate, and we were just exploring rhythmic patterns on just one chord, and out of nowhere I did a run that got a little atonal and then came back into key, and I saw him look up like wha???. Afterwards he said, how did you do that, that was awesome, and all I could reply was I first got the idea in my head and then kind of 'saw' it on the fret board. Although there might have been some chemicals involved....

[Ernest Jones]

6 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Yeah, me too. Never took a lesson. Just learned over time what patterns and fingerings produced what kind of sound or effect. Although, there is an up side to that. I have played with some 'schooled' guitar players that will only play a certain scale and mode if a certain chord or chord sequence is being played, and that can be predictable and restrictive.

I always remember one time I was jamming with a bass player, Berkley school of music graduate, and we were just exploring rhythmic patterns on just one chord, and out of nowhere I did a run that got a little atonal and then came back into key, and I saw him look up like wha???. Afterwards he said, how did you do that, that was awesome, and all I could reply was I first got the idea in my head and then kind of 'saw' it on the fret board. Although there might have been some chemicals involved....

Learning how to use modal scales completely transformed my ability to improvise. Think in G, blow in D. 

[dak4n6]

That's why I love ad hoc jamming. It gives you the space to explore. If I find myself getting 'stuck' (hmmm, very similar to the golf swing), I will deliberately go off key and atonal and even sometimes even stay there almost to the point of annoyance of my fellow players. But then when you return to key, it is a mental release of tension and it usually enables you to tear it up.

[No Mulligans]

39 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Learning how to use modal scales completely transformed my ability to improvise. Think in G, blow in D. 

 

26 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

That's why I love ad hoc jamming. It gives you the space to explore. If I find myself getting 'stuck' (hmmm, very similar to the golf swing), I will deliberately go off key and atonal and even sometimes even stay there almost to the point of annoyance of my fellow players. But then when you return to key, it is a mental release of tension and it usually enables you to tear it up.

Spoiler

I've practiced scales and arpeggios but when I play I really think of chord grips with the chord tones being targets.  I see myself as a chordal improviser for lack of a better term.  I'm not really aware of the scales or arpeggios I'm playing, instead I'm just playing my "Dominant 7 root on the 6th string "stuff" for instance.  This might be some mixolydian mode mixed with a blues scale. arpeggios and some chromatics (seldom the penatonic scale though lol).  But I'm not thinking that way.  It's like this:  (Just a hobby and I'm an amateur that just loves to play and write...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5tFAkF8UM

Getting a bit off topic, so I'll reply in a spoiler box.

[dak4n6]

Quote

  Reveal hidden contents

I've practiced scales and arpeggios but when I play I really think of chord grips with the chord tones being targets.  I see myself as a chordal improviser for lack of a better term.  I'm not really aware of the scales or arpeggios I'm playing, instead I'm just playing my "Dominant 7 root on the 6th string "stuff" for instance.  This might be some mixolydian mode mixed with a blues scale. arpeggios and some chromatics (seldom the penatonic scale though lol).  But I'm not thinking that way.  It's like this:  (Just a hobby and I'm an amateur that just loves to play and write...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty5tFAkF8UM

Getting a bit off topic, so I'll reply in a spoiler box.

That's really sweet sounding. I only rarely can get into a good sounding jazz frame of mind, probably because I'm an uneducated player. I stick mainly to rock/blues, and love to play spacey Dead or Allman space jam kind of stuff where you just explore sounds. I don't even know what a myxolidian progression is although I've heard of it...

[Ernest Jones]

44 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

That's really sweet sounding. I only rarely can get into a good sounding jazz frame of mind, probably because I'm an uneducated player. I stick mainly to rock/blues, and love to play spacey Dead or Allman space jam kind of stuff where you just explore sounds. I don't even know what a myxolidian progression is although I've heard of it...

That was Jerry's favorite mode. St. Stephen is myxilodion. (Sp?)

[dak4n6]

21 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

That was Jerry's favorite mode. St. Stephen is myxilodion. (Sp?)

St Stephen is mixolydian? Oh, OK apparently I can play mixolydian as I have jammed on that tune many times. Is that just a fancy name for chromatic runs? I know Jerry always used to throw in whole strings of those half steps when jamming/exploring....

[Ernest Jones]

1 hour ago, dak4n6 said:

St Stephen is mixolydian? Oh, OK apparently I can play mixolydian as I have jammed on that tune many times. Is that just a fancy name for chromatic runs? I know Jerry always used to throw in whole strings of those half steps when jamming/exploring....

 

Dude, sorry, I mislead you on that one. St. Stephen, I believe, is in the major (Ionion) key. Fire on the Mountain is in Mixolydian. So if you were to play Fire on the Mountain in B, using the chords B and A, you could pick out notes from the chord patterns or use your ear and select the correct notes that fit from the B major scale OR you could play the lead in B mixolydian. This is far more intuitive in my opinion, and lends itself to greater freedom in improvisation. B mixolydian is just the E-major scale using the B as the root note instead of the E. But here's the thing, if you're going with chords patterns you need to keep shifting mentally. Whereas E-major contains all the necessary notes to marry with B major and A major chords. This means you can park your mind in E-major (always remembering that B is now your root note) and just wail away. 

Basically, any song in a major key might actually work better in terms of improvisation if you use one of the major modes - Ionion, Lydian and Mixolydian

Any song in a minor key might work better in a minor mode - Aeolian, Dorian or Phrygian

I'm going to try to map these out using C as the baseline:

C-Ionian - C major

D-Dorian (second degree)- C major with D as the root note (minor sounding D scale) 

E- Phyrgian (third degree)- C major scale with E as the root note (minor sounding E scale)

F - Lydian (fourth degree)- C major scale with F as the root (major sounding F scale)

G - Mixolydian (fifth degree)-  C major scale with G as the root note (Jerry's favorite - very major and spacey sounding)

A -Aeolian (sixth degree)- C major scale with A as the root. AKA relative minor, in this case A minor

B - Locrian (seventh degree)- C major scale with B as the root. (minor sounding B scale)

Try playing around with those variations over some different major and minor rhythm tracks and you'll quickly get a feel for modal improvisation. It's nowhere near as difficult as I've made it sound, your ears will pick it up right away and you'll far more free when improvising because you'll be able to find the mode who's natural tones fit all the chords in the song your playing, then you can just park your mind and let'er rip!

 

Hopefully, I didn't **** up my explanation. I believe @boogielicious is a fairly accomplished musician, maybe he can weight in.

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

 

Dude, sorry, I mislead you on that one. St. Stephen, I believe, is in the major (Ionion) key. Fire on the Mountain is in Mixolydian. So if you were to play Fire on the Mountain in B, using the chords B and A, you could pick out notes from the chord patterns or use your ear and select the correct notes that fit from the B major scale OR you could play the lead in B mixolydian. This is far more intuitive in my opinion, and lends itself to greater freedom in improvisation. B mixolydian is just the E-major scale using the B as the root note instead of the E. But here's the thing, if you're going with chords patterns you need to keep shifting mentally. Whereas E-major contains all the necessary notes to marry with B major and A major chords. This means you can park your mind in E-major (always remembering that B is now your root note) and just wail away. 

Basically, any song in a major key might actually work better in terms of improvisation if you use one of the major modes - Ionion, Lydian and Mixolydian

Any song in a minor key might work better in a minor mode - Aeolian, Dorian or Phrygian

I'm going to try to map these out using C as the baseline:

C-Ionian - C major

D-Dorian (second degree)- C major with D as the root note (minor sounding D scale) 

E- Phyrgian (third degree)- C major scale with E as the root note (minor sounding E scale)

F - Lydian (fourth degree)- C major scale with F as the root (major sounding F scale)

G - Mixolydian (fifth degree)-  C major scale with G as the root note (Jerry's favorite - very major and spacey sounding)

A -Aeolian (sixth degree)- C major scale with A as the root. AKA relative minor, in this case A minor

B - Locrian (seventh degree)- C major scale with B as the root. (minor sounding B scale)

Try playing around with those variations over some different major and minor rhythm tracks and you'll quickly get a feel for modal improvisation. It's nowhere near as difficult as I've made it sound, your ears will pick it up right away and you'll far more free when improvising because you'll be able to find the mode who's natural tones fit all the chords in the song your playing, then you can just park your mind and let'er rip!

 

Hopefully, I didn't **** up my explanation. I believe @boogielicious is a fairly accomplished musician, maybe he can weight in.

I remember practicing those. It became a math course after a while. But now, I just write and play what sounds right!  

[No Mulligans]

3 hours ago, boogielicious said:

I remember practicing those. It became a math course after a while. But now, I just write and play what sounds right!  

Yep, me too.

[isukgolf]

Speaking of scales and American Idol ...