Hit it Over the Ditch or Lay up Short?

[JonMA1]

11 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think others have said it, but I take bigger risks  in match-play situations.   I don't necessarily take risks off the tee though.  If my opponent is on the green, that's when I might take a shot at a flag, when otherwise I'd be playing a safer shot to the middle of the green.  I might take a risk on a long carry.  I might take a short-game risk if I know I need to make a par for a tie, or to win a hole late in the round.  If I'm on the way to losing a hole, I've lost very little if I risk and fail, the next hole is a fresh challenge.

Until my opponent is on the green, I usually don't think about taking much of a risk.  Its important to remember that golfers at every level make mistakes.  I hate to take a really low-percentage shot and fail, and give my opponent the chance to play really safe for an easy win on a hole.  If I keep my ball in play, I keep the pressure on him, I force him to perform if he wants to win.  

Thanks Dave. As I said, competition in golf is something I know nothing about.

In a game like tennis, If I'm playing an opponent who's at my skill level or below, I play it safe. Just sit back and wait for him to make unforced errors. But if I'm playing an opponent with more skill - especially one who doesn't make mistakes - the only way I win is by hitting winners. The trouble with this strategy is that while I might be able to take a few games at first, eventually I'll start missing those shots.

I suppose it's different with golf in that when playing someone at a higher skill level, the handicap system comes into play. I'd guess that means use the strategy that offer the best chance at a low score and not worry about what the other guy is doing (again, no experience).

---

Anyway, regarding the OP's question, If the creek runs right in the middle of my range with the driver, of course I lay up. Why wouldn't I?

The first hole at a local course I play has a small pond in front of the green that is at 230 yards. I always use a 3 wood on that tee. Not because I average 230 yards with my driver, but because the odds of me hitting that distance are enough to justify playing it safe.

If that pond were 250 yards out, I definitely use the driver. Not because I can't hit one 250, but because it happens so infrequently that I'll take the 15 or 25 yards of reward the driver offers over the 3w, versus the slight risk of losing a stroke with an unusually good drive. Now if I started hitting that pond on a regular basis, then I'd re-think my strategy and feel good about the fact that my distances have gotten better.

I tougher decision would be if that creek were at 200 yards. There's a good enough chance of me hitting either a weak driver or a normal 3w that I lay up with a 5w.

[SavvySwede]

35 minutes ago, Lihu said:

He's currently a 28 handicap.

He also said he doesn't know anyone who has birdied it. Kinda far-fetched. I'd bet there is one there every day.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, SavvySwede said:

He also said he doesn't know anyone who has birdied it. Kinda far-fetched. I'd bet there is one there every day.

True, 375 yards and a 100 yard approach seems like it should be birdie-able.

[vangator]

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

 

If you follow the red line you only need like a 380 yard drive, then just pitch that last 150 yard approach (not 200) over water onto the green. Actually, it looks longer than the standard path. I like the optimism in making that first red shot.

 

I actually found the red path by accident.  Tried the big drive across the ditch but pushed it way right.  My pushed shots go high and long.  Went up the hill, not really expecting to find my ball, and there it was on the tee box.  Perfect lie.  I was about 200 out.  I would hit my 4 iron now, but I didn't have it then, so I muscled a 5 iron.  I've since played that route a few times.  Risky because there's a lot of trouble up there.  It's not like just banging it in the next fairway.  Lot of luck needed.

 

On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 8:31 PM, vangator said:

The other layup hole I mentioned.  509 yard par 5.  Blue line is conservative 3 shot.  Red line is aggressive (for me anyway).  From tee to water is about 260 slightly down hill, leaving 249 to the green.  If you try to go for it in two (I never do from this angle) there's lots of trouble if you don't hit 2nd shot long and straight.  I lay up to about 100 and hit wedge in.  Good target golf hole.  Fairway by 3rd blue arrow is maybe 15 yards wide.

The red line is the driver up on adjacent tee box.  No OB.  Tee box is quite elevated, so a big drive can leave a 200 yard shot down to the green at a much more friendly approach angle.  Maybe 170 yard carry for the water by the green.  I know that green side trap by it's first name.   If the tee is not clear, I go the blue route.

Sorry for the 3 posts in a row, but I kept getting timed out.

 

[9wood]

Last time I played this hole back in December when the temperature outside was 55 degrees, I got off a 230 yd tee shot with my 3 wood but ended up short of the green by about 15 yds on my second shot with my 3 iron.

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by 9wood

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

Last time I played this hole back in December when the temperature outside was 55 degrees, I got off a 230 yd tee shot with my 3 wood but ended up short of the green by about 15 yds on my second shot with my 3 iron.

 

I'm going to paraphrase @Dave2512 and say that unless you have some statistical idea how you play it is really difficult to contemplate what would work. Get Game Golf installed on your phone or get a real game golf. The statistics are really amazing.

I would not be able to tell what to do unless I had some idea how far I shoot a particular club on average. Even as a newbie to GG and the fact that I really only kind of know my driver and 3W and maybe hybrid these last few months the system tells me to layup on this hole of yours with hybrid and play for bogey.

So, if I played this course of yours under the cold 49F (could have been colder as our Arroyo effect makes the course 5-10 degrees colder than the town temperature) and foggy conditions I played yesterday at my home course, my 3W would still be in play as my median 3W for the day was only 210 yards with a max of 216 yards. My overall median for the past 3 months (winter with summer temperatures sometimes) is 231 yards with a maximum of 262 yards, so I would figure that in summer conditions it would be out of play.

Ironically, 3 months ago, I probably would have just done a layup with my hybrid on this hole and play for bogey, but now I know why.

[Dave2512]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'm going to paraphrase @Dave2512 and say that unless you have some statistical idea how you play it is really difficult to contemplate what would work. Get Game Golf installed on your phone or get a real game golf. The statistics are really amazing.

Someone also wrote a book about it. These threads shouldn't exist on this forum.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Someone also wrote a book about it.

Oh yeah, to the OP get LSW.

Quote

These threads shouldn't exist on this forum.

Actually, threads like these make good case studies of how LSW can help the OPs.

[Dave2512]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

Actually, threads like these make good case studies of how LSW can help the OPs.

Maybe. The resistance to the practical LSW advice tends to be oh well I golf for fun and thrills and chasing scores is too serious for me. But heck yeah anyone serious about playing better golf needs to read that book, buy Game Golf and swallow their pride.

[Lihu]

11 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

Maybe. The resistance to the practical LSW advice tends to be oh well I golf for fun and thrills and chasing scores is too serious for me***. But heck yeah anyone serious about playing better golf needs to read that book, buy Game Golf and swallow their pride.

The main thing I got from the shot zones section is to really know your yardages. Prior to getting Game Golf, I was using google earth and just pacing off approach distances, but I have to admit that GG makes my life a lot easier. Now, I'm even too lazy to double check the distances GG gives me.

However, GG is only a means to an end. LSW is the key(s) to this equation. What I like is that everything is laid out in a nice format and easy to understand.

There's no need to "swallow their pride", Just choose club according to your distance chart and press a button or beep a club. Simple.

 

 

*** In regard to the "I play for fun bit", if you do that and it takes you a heck of a long time to reach a green you could be slowing pace of play. I feel like it's everyone's responsibility to play to the best of their ability to speed up play.

[Dave2512]

13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

The main thing I got from the shot zones section is to really know your yardages. Prior to getting Game Golf, I was using google earth and just pacing off approach distances, but I have to admit that GG makes my life a lot easier. Now, I'm even too lazy to double check the distances GG gives me.

I already knew what my shot zone was pre LSW, at least with irons. What GG taught me was what to expect from certain yardages. I think most assume their miss is directional when it's directional and short. Looking at my GG approach insight data my short % is more than either left or right. And some of the left and right flawed due to hitting shots towards certain areas vs a pure directional miss. It get worse the further away from the green. From 100-125 just 9% short, from 175-200 36% short. The longer my shot has to travel the more likely it drops short and right.

I was being facetious about the pride thing, my PC is a piece of chit so I can't get the emoticons open. But in seriousness looking at my averages and those of other GG users there are more grey dots on the short side of their average than the long side. It's not all punch outs, amateurs miss short.

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, Dave2512 said:

I already knew what my shot zone was pre LSW, at least with irons. What GG taught me was what to expect from certain yardages. I think most assume their miss is directional when it's directional and short. Looking at my GG approach insight data my short % is more than either left or right. And some of the left and right flawed due to hitting shots towards certain areas vs a pure directional miss. It get worse the further away from the green. From 100-125 just 9% short, from 175-200 36% short. The longer my shot has to travel the more likely it drops short and right.

I was being facetious about the pride thing, my PC is a piece of chit so I can't get the emoticons open. But in seriousness looking at my averages and those of other GG users there are more grey dots on the short side of their average than the long side. It's not all punch outs, amateurs miss short.

No doubt.

[9wood]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

*** In regard to the "I play for fun bit", if you do that and it takes you a heck of a long time to reach a green you could be slowing pace of play. I feel like it's everyone's responsibility to play to the best of their ability to speed up play.

I began letting that statement to percolate through my noggin a bit and then thought ....... Personally, I'm a 67 year old golfer, and I play for relaxation and enjoyment. I really like a hole that presents a good challenge and I will risk taking the chance of pulling off a shot where the odds of making it are low. Sometimes I make it, and that is cause for excitement. Either way, I am not worried about whether or not I might have been able to save a stroke if I wouldn't have taken and failed at a risky shot and instead taken the safe or smart shot. When I first starting playing golf, I was in my forties, I was shooting around 112 or so. Then I completely gave up golf for about 12 years and I just started playing again 3 years ago. I have seen improvements in my game. These days my scoring has been in the high 80's to mid 90's so and I am satisfied with that. At age 67, I'm not looking to get to a place where I can shoot in the high 70's - low 80's. Finally I can't recall a time ever where I have held anyone up or slowed anyone down. In fact, I am always the one being slowed down. If I'm still playing golf in my 80's, I'm sure it will take me longer to reach the greens. Cherish your youth.

[colin007]

251 carry? I'll hit over it with my 3-wood. 

 

 

Oh wait...is this the right thread for that? Lol...

[bubble]

On 2 mars 2016 at 7:42 PM, 9wood said:

I think this might be interesting. Here's a scenario. You're about to tee off on a 412 yd. par 4 hole and you would really like a birdie, yet you will settle for par if you have to. You know if you get off a really good tee shot that your chances of scoring well just increased. Between 220 and 230 yards out there is drainage ditch that runs all the way across the fairway and beyond. So here's the question. Would you try to drive across the ditch, or hit short of the ditch and be left with about 200 yds still to go for your second shot?

230 yards thats 207 meters carry about so passing the ditch is

a really really good 3 hybrid.

a naturally good contacted 3 wood 

any type of not badly contacted drive.

unless wind is involved.

 

I feel the ditch is almost not in play from a back tee position I would have the tee more in the 250-260 yard range to make you think it over really hard.

I'm a more lay up guy though. would prefer to lay up if needed, take double and most birdies out of the game and welcomes par and bogeys. 

 

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, 9wood said:

I began letting that statement to percolate through my noggin a bit and then thought ....... Personally, I'm a 67 year old golfer, and I play for relaxation and enjoyment. I really like a hole that presents a good challenge and I will risk taking the chance of pulling off a shot where the odds of making it are low. Sometimes I make it, and that is cause for excitement. Either way, I am not worried about whether or not I might have been able to save a stroke if I wouldn't have taken and failed at a risky shot and instead taken the safe or smart shot. When I first starting playing golf, I was in my forties, I was shooting around 112 or so. Then I completely gave up golf for about 12 years and I just started playing again 3 years ago. I have seen improvements in my game. These days my scoring has been in the high 80's to mid 90's so and I am satisfied with that. At age 67, I'm not looking to get to a place where I can shoot in the high 70's - low 80's. Finally I can't recall a time ever where I have held anyone up or slowed anyone down. In fact, I am always the one being slowed down. If I'm still playing golf in my 80's, I'm sure it will take me longer to reach the greens. Cherish your youth.

Yeah, many of the senior golfers I know wait on younger people. Ironic, to say the least.

 

52 minutes ago, colin007 said:

251 carry? I'll hit over it with my 3-wood. 

Oh wait...is this the right thread for that? Lol...

Yeah, wrong thread, you need one of the other bragging threads.

 

[Dave2512]

If fun and rising to the challenge is the goal blast away. I see a lot of people doing that. They don't care if they shoot 120 as long as they pull off one really cool shot. Usually the temptation is reachable par 5's and short par 4's.

There are a couple of holes at our course I am tempted to unlock now and then. With the a little tailwind and a well hit mini slice I can cut the corner on our 385 yd 10th hole and roll it near the green if it lands on the other side of the mound I have to carry. It's really only a 280ish drive but anything but perfect spoils the fun. There is OB right.

[9wood]

21 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, many of the senior golfers I know wait on younger people. Ironic, to say the least.

I suspect one of the reasons may be due to the fact that while senior golfers might not hit the ball as far as the younger golfers, but they do hit it straighter, more accurately and in the fairways more often than many younger golfers which means less time hunting for balls in the rough or woods.