Swinging With the Body/Loose Arms and Wrists

[JonMA1]

I loaned my copy to someone (and they have yet to return it ) so I don't have it in front of me.

I think that there is likely more potential for the average player to learn certain mechanics. But other than the 5 simple keys, wouldn't you say that many good players have different swings? Long backswing, short backswing. Fast tempo, slow tempo? Strong grip vs weak?. Erik and Mike believe that a gripping the club tight is important, while other decent players have a looser grip.

There may be a single best way to teach the average amateur which will bring them to their potential the fastest. What is taught by the pros at this sight may very well be that best method. But isn't it possible there may be circumstances where it may not fit an individual for whatever reason?

My thoughts on this don't mean too much as I know nothing about good golf mechanics and even less about instruction. But everyone is different. We have different potentials, bodies, minds and most of all, different goals. A method that works for a bright young athlete with the potential and drive to get to scratch, may not work for an old fart who simply wants a swing that will get him to bogey golf without busting up his body. Do you really believe the same swing will work for both students?

Edited March 10, 2016 by JonMA1

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I loaned my copy to someone (and they have yet to return it ) so I don't have it in front of me.

I think that there is likely more potential for the average player to learn certain mechanics. But other than the 5 simple keys, wouldn't you say that many good players have different swings? Long backswing, short backswing. Fast tempo, slow tempo? Strong grip vs weak?. Erik and Mike believe that a gripping the club tight is important, while other decent players have a looser grip.

I agree that relaxing can help you learn to make the swing, but if you actually had a loose grip with a club head moving roughly 100mph, the club would fly out of your hands.

Better golfers have very strong grip strength so maybe they just feel like the grip is "loose"?

 

2 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

There may be a single best way to teach the average amateur which will bring them to their potential the fastest. What is taught by the pros at this sight may very well be that best method. But isn't it possible there may be circumstances where it may not fit an individual for whatever reason?

Well, the information in LSW is based upon many years of experience and well documented observations.

[JonMA1]

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

I agree that relaxing can help you learn to make the swing, but if you actually had a loose grip with a club head moving roughly 100mph, the club would fly out of your hands.

Better golfers have very strong grip strength so maybe they just feel like the grip is "loose"?

 

Well, the information in LSW is based upon many years of experience and well documented observations.

You're using terms like "loose" and "strong". I believe I used the term "looser". Meaning, if you measured the pressure (or whichever term is correct) of every golfer under a HI of 5, you'd have a wide variance. This is just a guess based on very limited experience, conversation and reading. Other than the five keys, better players don't swing their clubs the same way.

I'd be willing to bet there are good players out there who grip looser than I do. If you suggesting that players can't tell the difference between a tighter and looser grip, I simply disagree.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

You're using terms like "loose" and "strong". I believe I used the term "looser". Meaning, if you measured the pressure (or whichever term is correct) of every golfer under a HI of 5, you'd have a wide variance. This is just a guess based on very limited experience, conversation and reading. Other than the five keys, better players don't swing their clubs the same way.

I'd be willing to bet there are good players out there who grip looser than I do. If you suggesting that players can't tell the difference between a tighter and looser grip, I simply disagree.

Not suggesting that at all, I was just trying to say the the grip the better players have on the club is much tighter on the grip than it looks.

Better players are better at relaxing the passive muscles in a swing, but are far from zen like relaxed and loose. Which is what I've been trying to suggest.

[ev780]

On 3/7/2016 at 10:20 AM, Lihu said:

 

Not semantics. The golf swing is far from "relaxed".

I think I disagree. Respectfully of course.  When I watch really good players the swing looks effortless. I was hitting balls next to a PGA Tour guy the other day and the rhythm, tempo, and timing was astounding! I think this is what the OP (correct me if I am wrong) was getting at. That relaxed smooth easy looking and feeling swing is our goal. Certainly mine.

Now if say the feel is 80% of full throttle is what produces that smooth easy looking swing, then PGA Tour pro with a finely tuned instrument is going to have a much better result than my fat a$$ that sits behind a desk for 50 hours+ per week.

[Lihu]

12 minutes ago, ev780 said:

I think I disagree. Respectfully of course.  When I watch really good players the swing looks effortless. I was hitting balls next to a PGA Tour guy the other day and the rhythm, tempo, and timing was astounding! I think this is what the OP (correct me if I am wrong) was getting at. That relaxed smooth easy looking and feeling swing is our goal. Certainly mine.

Now if say the feel is 80% of full throttle is what produces that smooth easy looking swing, then PGA Tour pro with a finely tuned instrument is going to have a much better result than my fat a$$ that sits behind a desk for 50 hours+ per week.

Actually you don't disagree with what I am saying at all. Sure, good players look like they are not putting forth that much effort, and everyone should be using what feels like 80% effort. That's what it should "feel" like.

Where we seem to differ is that I do not think a golf swing that produces enough power to move the ball 240 plus yards is going to be "relaxed".

Many people who "think" they hit 200 yard drives might very well "feel" relaxed, but a decent swing uses a large number of muscles in our bodies. It's not really relaxed.

[JonMA1]

9 hours ago, Lihu said:

Better players are better at relaxing the passive muscles in a swing, but are far from zen like relaxed and loose. Which is what I've been trying to suggest.

Yes, this makes sense.

I don't think we're talking about drastically different things @Lihu. I'm not talking about a grip so loose that the club flies out of my hands or even one loose enough that a toe hit will twist the club open. And you're not talking about a grip that is so tight that it causes tension in the wrists and forearms.

Somewhere in between those two extremes is a grip that will help me play better golf - along with so many other things.

[colin007]

Don't confuse "tempo" with "effort" just because get lol smooth when they're swinging. Watch the pros in slow mo and you'll see their muscles popping out and strain on their faces. They are swinging hard off the tee. A wedge, not so much, but a full 7 iron weekwill show just how much effort is going into it. And if you measured grip pressure, the good holders are holding it tighter than you might think.

[DaveP043]

I have to think that after years of practicing and playing, a really good player's "grip muscles" become pretty strong, compared to an average guy.  Consequently, if they're gripping at 30% or 40% effort, and feeling relatively relaxed, their grip strength still may be the same as an average guy's 100% effort, which feels anything but relaxed to him.  

In my opinion, tension in the wrong place, or at the wrong time, can actually slow down a player's swing.  Hitting a golf ball requires muscular effort, but with specific muscles and in a specific sequence.  The best players make it look easy, but they're swinging pretty hard at most of their full shots. 

[JonMA1]

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I have to think that after years of practicing and playing, a really good player's "grip muscles" become pretty strong, compared to an average guy.  Consequently, if they're gripping at 30% or 40% effort, and feeling relatively relaxed, their grip strength still may be the same as an average guy's 100% effort, which feels anything but relaxed to him.  

In my opinion, tension in the wrong place, or at the wrong time, can actually slow down a player's swing.  Hitting a golf ball requires muscular effort, but with specific muscles and in a specific sequence.  The best players make it look easy, but they're swinging pretty hard at most of their full shots. 

This seems logical to me as well. In fact, most of what everyone has posted in this thread makes sense. I think a pro's swing is so refined and efficient, there's little wasted effort beyond what's needed to deliver the club head to the ball at a very high speed.

So it kind of begs the question, if a poorer player like myself were to emulate a pro, which would I want to copy... the actual pressure he applies to the grip, or the effort he puts into getting that much pressure? I would guess that latter.

[mvmac]

6 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

So it kind of begs the question, if a poorer player like myself were to emulate a pro, which would I want to copy... the actual pressure he applies to the grip, or the effort he puts into getting that much pressure? I would guess that latter.

You really shouldn't emulate any pro unless they do a piece well that corresponds to your priority piece. For example if you tend to load the club head low and inside on the takeaway you might want to emulate Ryan Moore's takeaway as a feel.

You also can't copy what you're referring to with applying pressure. It most likely has nothing to do with your priority piece and it's not something the pro's actually feel.

[JonMA1]

4 hours ago, mvmac said:

You really shouldn't emulate any pro unless they do a piece well that corresponds to your priority piece. For example if you tend to load the club head low and inside on the takeaway you might want to emulate Ryan Moore's takeaway as a feel.

You also can't copy what you're referring to with applying pressure. It most likely has nothing to do with your priority piece and it's not something the pro's actually feel.

That question was more for the sake of discussion, Mike.

There is a lot of reference to how the pros do things in response to posts. The suggestion being "you shouldn't do that, because the pros do it this way".

When stating that I've gotten successful results by swinging with a looser grip and more relaxed arms, it's hard not to accept a response such as "the pros grip the club tighter than you think" or "they swing harder with their arms than you think" as anything but a suggestion that my way is incorrect. I don't agree with that logic for a couple of reasons.

You know I believe in the philosophy of working on a priority piece. An inability to do that properly is simply a poor approach to practice on my part. The few lessons I've taken from Evolvr were extremely beneficial. The only reason I discontinued them was because I'm still working on the priority pieces that were taught.

In regards to using videos of pros to check my what I'm doing, I'm pretty much done with that method. There is a reason I am not advancing my game at a  faster rate. I don't know exactly what that is but I suspect it's poor practice. So I'm trying to change my practice methods in order to change the picture, which will hopefully carry over to my scorecard.  

[Lihu]

3 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

That question was more for the sake of discussion, Mike.

There is a lot of reference to how the pros do things in response to posts. The suggestion being "you shouldn't do that, because the pros do it this way".

When stating that I've gotten successful results by swinging with a looser grip and more relaxed arms, it's hard not to accept a response such as "the pros grip the club tighter than you think" or "they swing harder with their arms than you think" as anything but a suggestion that my way is incorrect. I don't agree with that logic for a couple of reasons.

You know I believe in the philosophy of working on a priority piece. An inability to do that properly is simply a poor approach to practice on my part. The few lessons I've taken from Evolvr were extremely beneficial. The only reason I discontinued them was because I'm still working on the priority pieces that were taught.

In regards to using videos of pros to check my what I'm doing, I'm pretty much done with that method. There is a reason I am not advancing my game at a  faster rate. I don't know exactly what that is but I suspect it's poor practice. So I'm trying to change my practice methods in order to change the picture, which will hopefully carry over to my scorecard.  

I think the main thing is you won't be swinging anywhere as fast as a pro even if your body movements are nearly identical. Everything kind of scales up.

If relaxing helps improve your body motion that's perfect, but it's what I think is only the first step in getting a good swing?

I went through the "What? They want me to slow my swing down?" phase as well. Everyone told me to slow down, and I had no idea what they meant. So, I slowed down my swing as much as I could. One day, I had a lesson with Mike and he told me no one told me to swing slower. So, I immediately started swinging relaxed and at whatever speed my body naturally did.

Well, I used this relaxed swing for a while then found that I was getting stronger and faster. I just did that same relaxed swing faster and faster a little bit at a time. Not on purpose, but simply because my body was getting stronger.

At some point, Erik told me that philosophically, I was wrong about the feel after I posted a video of a drum with floppy strings and balls attached. That perplexed me for a couple months, and it eventually hit me.

Now I practice slow but not relaxed and swing with effort and not relaxed. The only time I'm relaxed is with a loosening my muscles type of practice swing.

That relaxed swing that was simply getting faster and faster then eventually became a swing that was not so relaxed and faster.

[JonMA1]

I understand @Lihu. Your willingness to help others is always appreciated, even if I disagree initially.  

I've been wrong many times when I've disagreed with those who are better and more experienced here at TST. I've always tried to acknowledge it upon that realization and will do the same if/when it occurs in this instance.

In the end, it's always exciting to learn something that seems to result in substantial improvement.

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I understand @Lihu. Your willingness to help others is always appreciated, even if I disagree initially.  

I've been wrong many times when I've disagreed with those who are better and more experienced here at TST. I've always tried to acknowledge it upon that realization and will do the same if/when it occurs in this instance.

In the end, it's always exciting to learn something that seems to result in substantial improvement.

That's always nice!

I have to say that everything Erik and others post are correct. The main issue is figuring out what they wrote. This is why I think Evolvr and/or private lessons with Mike and Erik can really help. Golf is the most frustrating sport I've done, and I've done a lot of them, because you always feel like there is room for improvement.

[JonMA1]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Golf is the most frustrating sport I've done, and I've done a lot of them, because you always feel like there is room for improvement.

Isn't that the truth.

[mnguy19]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

 Golf is the most frustrating sport I've done, and I've done a lot of them, because you always feel like there is room for improvement.

You're not kidding. I've always been good at every sport I've tried so when I tried golf I had a rude awakening. 

For me, im too stubborn to give up so the only option is to figure out how to improve. It's been a journey for sure, haha. 

[Marty2019]

I made a swing change and it has caused me to completely change my philosophy of how to swing a club.   Up until a couple of days ago, I thought that using relaxed hands and arms and centrifugal force would allow the club to "swing itself."  I had great results with my driver but I was really struggling with my irons and kind of struggling with my hybrids.   So I went to the range with just my irons to try to figure out how to hit an iron. 

I tried everything.  Keep my weight on the inside of by back foot instead of rolling onto the outside of my back foot.   Shorten my backswing.  Keep my elbow tucked in.  Get on plane.   Get in the slot.   Everything I'm supposed to do.   Then, one thing made it all work.   And that is, change my grip to where my hands are more on top of the club.  Rotate my left hand and my right hand towards each other.   Think of Ben Hogan's grip in his book.  Before, my grip had my hands more opposed to each other.   Changing my grip to look more like Ben Hogan's grip feels awkward at address, but it is wonderful at the top of the backswing, and on the downswing when the club is parallel to the ground, what they call "in the slot."   I feel like I'm in control of the club, and I'm in control of the timing of the release.   Great control of the club at the top of the back swing, and great control of the release. 

I hit so many good shots with this grip yesterday.   Much more distance with my irons and hybrids.  Much more control.   No more weak pop fly fade short and to the right.  Just hard solid shots dead straight.   On two par 3s, I had 5 foot putts for birdie.  [sunk one, missed one]  On a couple of par 5s, my layup shots went so far, with a little more club I could have hit the green easily. 

So, once again, I was wrong, I have changed my mind.  Relaxed hands are nice, but it is so much better to have the proper grip and control of the club.   If the club is in the slot, parallel to the ground, if you have your hands on top of the club, then you can actively straighten it.   You don't have to decelerate the handle to have the club straighten out.  I am now in control of the timing.  I now have much more power. 

Funny thing, my friend who is pretty good was telling me yesterday, "You've been playing too long to change your swing.  Just work with what you've got."   Well, bullshit on that.  I'm changing. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Marty2019