Course handicap - bogie rating on 9 holes?

[jkelley9]

I'm trying to gauge my handicap because I've been playing a lot more lately but I only play 9 holes at a time, and only by myself. So I really can't keep a true HCI. I have a question regarding the USGA course handicap ratings to get a better feel for what my real handicap is so I can inform other players, so long as I'm honest with myself (which I always am, I don't understand the point of lying about my skill level).

For example:

Tee Name	USGA Course Rating (18)	Slope Rating (18)	Front (9)	Back (9)	Bogey Rating (18)	Gender
Blue Tees	71.3	133	34.7 / 129	36.6 / 136	95.9	M
Mixed Tees	68.9	126	33.6 / 123	35.3 / 129	92.3	M
White Tees	66.6	119	32.6 / 113	34.0 / 125	88.7	M
White Tees	72.2	130	35.6 / 127	36.6 / 132	102.8	F
Red Tees	67.4	117	33.2 / 114	34.2 / 120	94.9	F

 

I played this mixed tees today, but only the front nine. The front nine is a 113 slope with a 33.6 rating. The back nine is a 129 slope with a 35.3 rating. So this is a total of 68.9 rating (shown on the left of course). But what I don't understand is why the bogie rating would be MORE than 18 strokes different? It's actually 23.4 different. Is this calculated by the USGA folks that even though the course itself is "easier" (eighteen hole slope of only 126) that for some reason it is more difficult a course for bogie golfers?

So if I shot a 42 from the white tees Saturday, and a 44 (taking an ESC 7 on a par 5 that I actually quadruple bogied... since I believe I'm ~around~ a 18 HCI) from the mixed tees today (front nine both times), how do I accurately gauge what the bogie rating is for that set nine holes? The only "bogie rating" that is shown is for a full 18 holes.

Thanks! 

Edited March 6, 2016 by jkelley9

[sjduffers]

Several things here.

The slope of the front nine of the mixed tees is 123, not 113.

First, the proper way to compute a handicap index when playing rounds of 9 holes is simply to let the system combine 2 9 holes rounds into an 18 holes round.  They don't have to be back-to-back rounds and they don't have to be at the same course.  Any 2 9 holes round can be combined into an 18 holes round for the purpose of handicapping.

Report your 9 holes rounds and let the system (eg GHIN) do the math for you.  If you are trying to do the math yourself, I am not sure whether to take the rating of the individual nines, or to take half of the 18 holes rating (and the 18 holes slope, which is the average of the 2 9 holes slopes). This course seems to be much harder on the back than the front, so if you are only playing the front, combining 2 9 holes from the front should probably be done by taking the rating of the front (times 2) and the slope of the front.

The overall slope of 126 is not particularly easy (for a bogie golfer): the reference is 113. Anything lower is easier, and anything higher is harder. Sure 126 is not the hardest (155 is the hardest possible) and many really difficult courses are in the high 130s and in the 140s, but 126 is significantly more difficult than 113. Just play the back 9 once in a while (at a slope of 129) to convince yourself of that!  The 18 holes course rating is the sum of the 2 9 holes rating (front and back) whereas the 18 holes course slope is the average of the front and back.

The bogie rating does not really matter. What enters into your handicap index computation is your differential which is the difference between your ESC score and the course rating, multiplied by the ratio of the course's slope divided by 113 (the reference slope).  The 10 bests differentials from your last 20 18 holes round (could be 40 9-holes round combined into 20) are then averaged and a factor of 0.96 applied to that average, to gauge your potential.  There are of course considerations of rounding and truncating and I'll pass the details: that's why it's best to use an official system to do the math for you and at least a free web site that computes handicap. There are a few around: look for "golf handicap calculator".

Edited March 7, 2016 by sjduffers

[sjduffers]

To answer your last question, I would calculate the differential for these 2 9 holes combined as an 18 holes round as follows:  (42 - 32.6 + 44 - 33.6) * ((123 + 113)/2)/113 = 21.4  (21.37 rounded up).

This takes the course rating of each nine and makes an 18 holes course rating, and averages the slopes of 123 from the mixed tees and 113 from the white tees and uses that for the slope of your combined nine.

Edited March 7, 2016 by sjduffers

[Missouri Swede]

3 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

To answer your last question, I would calculate the differential for these 2 9 holes combined as an 18 holes round as follows:  (42 - 32.6 + 44 - 33.6) * ((123 + 113)/2)/113 = 21.4  (21.37 rounded up).

This takes the course rating of each nine and makes an 18 holes course rating, and averages the slopes of 123 from the mixed tees and 113 from the white tees and uses that for the slope of your combined nine.

The slope is used the other way around to calculate the differential: (adjusted gross score - course rating) x (113/slope). 

So here, the differential is 19.8 x (113/118) = 19.0 (rounded to nearest tenth)

If you happened to get this score 10 times (and they were your best 10 out of the last 20), your handicap index would be 19.0 x .96 = 18.2

So based on this single score, your estimate (18) was pretty close.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, jkelley9 said:

I'm trying to gauge my handicap because I've been playing a lot more lately but I only play 9 holes at a time, and only by myself. So I really can't keep a true HCI. I have a question regarding the USGA course handicap ratings to get a better feel for what my real handicap is so I can inform other players, so long as I'm honest with myself (which I always am, I don't understand the point of lying about my skill level).

For example:

Tee Name	USGA Course Rating (18)	Slope Rating (18)	Front (9)	Back (9)	Bogey Rating (18)	Gender
Blue Tees	71.3	133	34.7 / 129	36.6 / 136	95.9	M
Mixed Tees	68.9	126	33.6 / 123	35.3 / 129	92.3	M
White Tees	66.6	119	32.6 / 113	34.0 / 125	88.7	M
White Tees	72.2	130	35.6 / 127	36.6 / 132	102.8	F
Red Tees	67.4	117	33.2 / 114	34.2 / 120	94.9	F

 

I played this mixed tees today, but only the front nine. The front nine is a 113 slope with a 33.6 rating. The back nine is a 129 slope with a 35.3 rating. So this is a total of 68.9 rating (shown on the left of course). But what I don't understand is why the bogie rating would be MORE than 18 strokes different? It's actually 23.4 different. Is this calculated by the USGA folks that even though the course itself is "easier" (eighteen hole slope of only 126) that for some reason it is more difficult a course for bogie golfers?

So if I shot a 42 from the white tees Saturday, and a 44 (taking an ESC 7 on a par 5 that I actually quadruple bogied... since I believe I'm ~around~ a 18 HCI) from the mixed tees today (front nine both times), how do I accurately gauge what the bogie rating is for that set nine holes? The only "bogie rating" that is shown is for a full 18 holes.

Thanks! 

You can just enter the 9 hole scores and GHIN will automatically combine scores. It will show "C". I have mostly 9 hole rounds as my work got really busy lately, and just when I wanted to start to establish a handicap.

Mixed tees is a different issue. Do you mean the course moved the tees around and you played the same set? Or did you just randomly play different color tees? The greens keepers usually try to keep the ratings the same by moving the flag back or something. It's approximate, anyway. I'm reasonably sure it won't change your differential by more than a stroke or so, unless you played one from the back tees then the rest from the forward ones.

[sjduffers]

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

The slope is used the other way around to calculate the differential: (adjusted gross score - course rating) x (113/slope). 

Yes. You are right of course. I wrote this quickly without double-checking.  With an equal score vs rating, one gets a lower differential (ie a better score component in the index) on a more difficult course (one with a higher slope)!

Cheers! 

[Grumpter]

12 hours ago, Lihu said:

You can just enter the 9 hole scores and GHIN will automatically combine scores. It will show "C".

Can you enter 9 hole scores on GHIN without them counting towards your handicap? My 'season' hasn't begun yet so I can't test it out.

To further support the key System premise of peer review, scores made while playing alone will no longer be acceptable for handicap purposes.

[jkelley9]

12 hours ago, Lihu said:

Mixed tees is a different issue. Do you mean the course moved the tees around and you played the same set? Or did you just randomly play different color tees? The greens keepers usually try to keep the ratings the same by moving the flag back or something. It's approximate, anyway. I'm reasonably sure it won't change your differential by more than a stroke or so, unless you played one from the back tees then the rest from the forward ones.

Sorry, "mixed tees" is what they call one of their sets of tees. They don't mix them up or anything, that's just what they call their "middle" tees I guess. 

I've had a GHIN account for a little while now but didn't realize I could plug the scores in myself. So I uploaded all of them last night (since I keep up with my scores on Golf Pad). Entering them was fine, but I was a little disappointed in how they show the scores entered on my home page. Like someone above said, they show a "C", and they automatically combined two consecutive rounds. Although, in a couple instances they did something different than that, but I think that's because I played a round of 9 at a different course and so they had to do something else there? For my consecutive rounds of 9 holes on the same set of holes I guess they did some type of calculation (probably the one above, comparing the front nine slope twice versus the full 18-hole course slope) and then adjusting the combination of those two scores I got. So... I guess it's a good thing I keep my scores on my phone since now they're displaying all these combinations and adjustments only without any raw scores or more importantly, raw rounds and dates (they just lumped two rounds together and put the later of the two dates...). Oh well.

Also, I'm sorry I was a little vague in my actual question. I wasn't really trying to figure out a handicap for myself per se, but I was actually trying to determine if I was "better or worse" than "bogie golf." I just kind of wanted to know at the time if I was under that threshold.

[Missouri Swede]

33 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

Also, I'm sorry I was a little vague in my actual question. I wasn't really trying to figure out a handicap for myself per se, but I was actually trying to determine if I was "better or worse" than "bogie golf." I just kind of wanted to know at the time if I was under that threshold.

Here's the definition:

Quote

Bogey Golfer

A male "bogey golfer" is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 20 on a course of standard difficulty. He can hit tee shots an average of 200 yards and reach a 370-yard hole in two shots at sea level. A female bogey golfer is a player who has a Course Handicap of approximately 24 on a course of standard difficulty. She can hit tee shots an average of 150 yards and reach a 280-yard hole in two shots

 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Grumpter said:

Can you enter 9 hole scores on GHIN without them counting towards your handicap? My 'season' hasn't begun yet so I can't test it out.

You won't be able to enter scores of any kind for a region that's not in the active season.  Once you're in season, all 9 hole rounds will count toward your handicap.  The system combines 9-hole scores in accordance with rule 5-2.d.

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14379

For @jkelley9, 9-hole scores are combined in the order they are played.  The course rating is the sum of the two 9-hole ratings, the slope is the average of the two.

[Grumpter]

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You won't be able to enter scores of any kind for a region that's not in the active season.  Once you're in season, all 9 hole rounds will count toward your handicap.  The system combines 9-hole scores in accordance with rule 5-2.d.

http://www.usga.org/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14379

For @jkelley9, 9-hole scores are combined in the order they are played.  The course rating is the sum of the two 9-hole ratings, the slope is the average of the two.

Yes, that I already knew and had been posting many 9 hole rounds. However, with the new rule change you are not supposed to count rounds where you were a single (for more than 2 holes out of 9). My question is can you post those 'unqualified' rounds to GHIN for personal handicapping tracking without them counting against your 'official' handicap? My guess is I now have to keep a separate non-official handicap to truly track my game.

[DaveP043]

Yeah, 

2 minutes ago, Grumpter said:

. My question is can you post those 'unqualified' rounds to GHIN for personal handicapping tracking without them counting against your 'official' handicap? My guess is I now have to keep a separate non-official handicap to truly track my game.

Sorry, I misread your question.  I think you're right, everything you post to Ghin will count toward your official handicap.  If you want to include those "unacceptable" scores in your calculations, you'll need to do it on your own somehow.  You might consider one of the free online services.  And when I say "unacceptable", I don't mean to imply that you've done anything wrong, that's just the word the USGA uses to describe scores that  can't be posted for official handicaps.

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, Grumpter said:

Yes, that I already knew and had been posting many 9 hole rounds. However, with the new rule change you are not supposed to count rounds where you were a single (for more than 2 holes out of 9). My question is can you post those 'unqualified' rounds to GHIN for personal handicapping tracking without them counting against your 'official' handicap? My guess is I now have to keep a separate non-official handicap to truly track my game.

My solution is to post qualified rounds to GHIN and GG everything including non-qualified ones.

 

21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yeah, 

Sorry, I misread your question.  I think you're right, everything you post to Ghin will count toward your official handicap.  If you want to include those "unacceptable" scores in your calculations, you'll need to do it on your own somehow.  You might consider one of the free online services.  And when I say "unacceptable", I don't mean to imply that you've done anything wrong, that's just the word the USGA uses to describe scores that  can't be posted for official handicaps.

This is where GG comes into play for me at least.

 

Speaking of this new rule, I've rarely had the opportunity to play rounds by myself. I usually get randomly partnered with the same people, but always end up in a group after the first hole or even only part of the way through the first hole. In one case, @iacas asked me if I was playing alone, I said with a stranger and he still recommended that I post. So, I have to assume that the loophole is that you can play with random partners and still have it count as a qualified round? If this is the case, I can pretty much post every round I play?

[DaveP043]

17 minutes ago, Lihu said:

@iacas asked me if I was playing alone, I said with a stranger and he still recommended that I post. So, I have to assume that the loophole is that you can play with random partners and still have it count as a qualified round? If this is the case, I can pretty much post every round I play?

The rule simply says the score is "unacceptable"  (vi) When a player plays alone; (NEW).  I don't think this qualifies as a loophole.  If you're playing with a stranger, you're not playing alone.  It seems like an odd distinction, and as some have said, the choice to revise this rule may have been misguided, but that's what the rule says.  All of us who keep  a USGA Handicap Index have to post by the same rules.

[Missouri Swede]

19 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Speaking of this new rule, I've rarely had the opportunity to play rounds by myself. I usually get randomly partnered with the same people, but always end up in a group after the first hole or even only part of the way through the first hole. In one case, @iacas asked me if I was playing alone, I said with a stranger and he still recommended that I post. So, I have to assume that the loophole is that you can play with random partners and still have it count as a qualified round? If this is the case, I can pretty much post every round I play?

It doesn't even have to be someone playing (emphasis added):

Quote

What constitutes not playing alone?

As long as someone accompanies the player during the round (e.g., fellow competitor, opponent, caddie, marker for a tournament, friend riding along in a cart) the player is not playing alone.

How many holes can a player play alone to post the score?

The player must be accompanied for at least seven holes for a nine-hole score or 13 holes for 18-hole score. This is consistent with Section 5-1 and the minimum number of holes played under the Rules of Golf.

For the holes played alone (not accompanied), the player would treat these as not played under the Rules of Golf and post according to “par plus” any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive.

 

[jkelley9]

I've been meaning to ask this even though it may be a little of topic: what is the purpose behind only being able to post scores that are played in a group? I understand that others being in your group will keep you more honest (probably?) but if you're allowed to post scores with strangers... what's to keep that person from going home and recording a different score?

I play golf alone way way more often than not. That is part of my enjoyment of the golf experience - going to the course after work in the last couple hours of play, not a group in sight to ever catch up to or to catch up to me and I just play to my heart's content in the beauty of nature. 

Is this considered inaccurate to post such scores because I'm not playing in the heat of competition, friends or otherwise, or the added pressure of pace of play or having people slow ahead of me add to my frustration? Is that a piece of the intended competition to affect my HCI?

Last follow up question: if I don't care about tournament play or anything but I just want to accurately track my progress and HCI... can I just post these rounds to GHIN on my own accord without worry? Or is this a major faux-pas or something?

[Lihu]

16 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The rule simply says the score is "unacceptable"  (vi) When a player plays alone; (NEW).  I don't think this qualifies as a loophole.  If you're playing with a stranger, you're not playing alone.  It seems like an odd distinction, and as some have said, the choice to revise this rule may have been misguided, but that's what the rule says.  All of us who keep  a USGA Handicap Index have to post by the same rules.

 

15 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

It doesn't even have to be someone playing (emphasis added):

 

 

12 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

I've been meaning to ask this even though it may be a little of topic: what is the purpose behind only being able to post scores that are played in a group? I understand that others being in your group will keep you more honest (probably?) but if you're allowed to post scores with strangers... what's to keep that person from going home and recording a different score?

I play golf alone way way more often than not. That is part of my enjoyment of the golf experience - going to the course after work in the last couple hours of play, not a group in sight to ever catch up to or to catch up to me and I just play to my heart's content in the beauty of nature. 

Is this considered inaccurate to post such scores because I'm not playing in the heat of competition, friends or otherwise, or the added pressure of pace of play or having people slow ahead of me add to my frustration? Is that a piece of the intended competition to affect my HCI?

Last follow up question: if I don't care about tournament play or anything but I just want to accurately track my progress and HCI... can I just post these rounds to GHIN on my own accord without worry? Or is this a major faux-pas or something?

 

My reasoning behind calling it a loophole is that I think the intent was to have someone verify your score. If the person is a complete stranger whom you might never see again how would they do that?

I think the intent of the change in the rule is mainly to prevent people from posting inaccurate scores, and the only way to really do that is to make sure there are other people who can verify your scores and handicap?

Sorry, @jkelley9, just got a little bit off topic in this thread. . .back to your OP I would just recommend to you to load Game Golf onto your phone and use that to track all your scores.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, jkelley9 said:

I've been meaning to ask this even though it may be a little of topic: what is the purpose behind only being able to post scores that are played in a group? I understand that others being in your group will keep you more honest (probably?) but if you're allowed to post scores with strangers... what's to keep that person from going home and recording a different score?

I see two potential motivations for the change.  First, the handicap system is based on having "peer review" as one control over the handicap.  Apparently they felt that rounds played by yourself didn't have the initial review by your peers, i.e. the golfers (or non-golfers) with you.

The second factor relates to a sentiment that would have all handicap systems worldwide work by the same rules.  Other systems may post only qualified competition rounds, or the "reference score" (like our Course rating) may vary based on the conditions on the day of competition, there are lots of differences.  This change, disallowing solo rounds, may be a small step towards unifying all the handicap systems.  If the unification goes forward, we can't expect everyone to change to our system, we're all going to face some changes.

Last comment, in my opinion if you're keeping an official USGA Handicap Index through Ghin, you really should follow all of the USGA rules.  Who knows, you may get invited to your second cousin's Member-Guest, and you'll really want your handicap to be correct.

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

My reasoning behind calling it a loophole is that I think the intent was to have someone verify your score. If the person is a complete stranger whom you might never see again how would they do that?

I think the intent of the change in the rule is mainly to prevent people from posting inaccurate scores, and the only way to really do that is to make sure there are other people who can verify your scores and handicap?

Sorry, @jkelley9, just got a little bit off topic in this thread. . .

From what I've read of USGA rules, they work really hard to make the specific wording of the rule reflect their intent.  If they wanted to require that someone verify your score, they would have made the wording reflect that.