I, @onthehunt526, No longer have issues with jacked lofts in SGI irons

[Mr. Desmond]

OP makes a great point. I've seen people scream about lofts getting jacked for at least the last 4 years. 

But as some  know, and others, ahem, like me, are realizing, this is an extension of high launch, low spin learned from driver technology that has evolved into fairway and hybrid tech.

Look at Callaway as another example - the Apex (and XR and BB) is a forged Cup Face tech in the 3-7. They found that launch with a cup face is higher (I believe that is what they found) with this tech than tungsten. In the 8-PW, they changed the face plate (still not certain what that means) and do not use cup face in 8-AW as players are going for accuracy and not as much distance in those clubs. And they've got to get the gap consistent between CF 7i and Non-CF 8i. Tough job.

But the point is that lower loft gets less spin and higher launch gets more carry -- theoretically and with decent ballstriking, you get more distance even at traditional shaft length. Of course, it takes a fitted shaft to get more launch without adding too much spin, yet when a ball hits the green you want stoppage, so a maker is combining that higher launch with lower spin and hoping a steeper descent stops the ball reasonably.

Lots of engineering going on to do all this. I'm exhausted. Back to work.

[onthehunt526]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

OP makes a great point. I've seen people scream about lofts getting jacked for at least the last 4 years. 

But as some  know, and others, ahem, like me, are realizing, this is an extension of high launch, low spin learned from driver technology that has evolved into fairway and hybrid tech.

Look at Callaway as another example - the Apex (and XR and BB) is a forged Cup Face tech in the 3-7. They found that launch with a cup face is higher (I believe that is what they found) with this tech than tungsten. In the 8-PW, they changed the face plate (still not certain what that means) and do not use cup face in 8-AW as players are going for accuracy and not as much distance in those clubs. And they've got to get the gap consistent between CF 7i and Non-CF 8i. Tough job.

But the point is that lower loft gets less spin and higher launch gets more carry -- theoretically and with decent ballstriking, you get more distance even at traditional shaft length. Of course, it takes a fitted shaft to get more launch without adding too much spin, yet when a ball hits the green you want stoppage, so a maker is combining that higher launch with lower spin and hoping a steeper descent stops the ball reasonably.

Lots of engineering going on to do all this. I'm exhausted. Back to work.

That's another ingredient to the cake, higher COR. The OEMs are getting on the Driver, Fairway, Hybrid cupped face and MOI train. Which equals high launch/low spin... combined with the low CG, if you don't lower the lofts, you basically have a club that is going to launch a mile in the air and go nowhere.

Loft is only one ingredient to getting the ball in the air. It's not a shame that they had to do it, But in order to have a functional SGI iron they need lower lofts... 

[Mr. Desmond]

4 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

That's another ingredient to the cake, higher COR. The OEMs are getting on the Driver, Fairway, Hybrid cupped face and MOI train. Which equals high launch/low spin... combined with the low CG, if you don't lower the lofts, you basically have a club that is going to launch a mile in the air and go nowhere.

Loft is only one ingredient to getting the ball in the air. It's not a shame that they had to do it, But in order to have a functional SGI iron they need lower lofts... 

Whoa, whoa... low loft tends to mean lower spin. It is useful when combined with lower CG  to get the ball up - as I stated in my post -- high launch, low spin.

If you look around, the Callaway Apex CF16 is not exactly a SGI -- but what you see is SGI Tech introduced into GI and Better Player Irons - look at the Titleist AP2, Look at the Callway Apex Pro - tungsten, look at PXG - they've disguised a CB as a blade with tungsten and perimeter weighting.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Mr. Desmond

[onthehunt526]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Whoa, whoa... low loft tends to mean lower spin. It is useful when combined with lower CG  to get the ball up - as I stated in my post -- high launch, low spin.

If you look around, the Callaway Apex CF16 is not exactly a SGI -- but what you see is SGI Tech introduced into GI and Better Player Irons - look at the Titleist AP2, Look at the Callway Apex Pro - tungsten, look at PXG - they've disguised a CB as a blade with tungsten and perimeter weighting.

I agree with that, a lot of the GI and Player's irons have SGI tech disguised in a smaller package...

My EXi irons are a smaller cavity back and on the verge of being a player's iron, but they have some SGI tech in there. They have the slot in the sole though different than TM, and a free standing face, but the offset is smaller, and they have a thinner topline than most GI clubs.

But like I stated before, static loft doesn't matter, the number stamped on the club doesn't matter, just knowing how far you hit it is important. I'm getting to the point, where I'm calling distance instead of club number... For instance my 180 carry club is my 6-iron, If I have 185 to the hole, I'll say it's either a good 180, or a nice 190 (5-iron).

[Mr. Desmond]

22 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I agree with that, a lot of the GI and Player's irons have SGI tech disguised in a smaller package...

My EXi irons are a smaller cavity back and on the verge of being a player's iron, but they have some SGI tech in there. They have the slot in the sole though different than TM, and a free standing face, but the offset is smaller, and they have a thinner topline than most GI clubs.

But like I stated before, static loft doesn't matter, the number stamped on the club doesn't matter, just knowing how far you hit it is important. I'm getting to the point, where I'm calling distance instead of club number... For instance my 180 carry club is my 6-iron, If I have 185 to the hole, I'll say it's either a good 180, or a nice 190 (5-iron).

Agreed. The loft or number on the iron is merely a reference in your head to yardage. Good luck!

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

@mvmac has an SGI 4-iron, which goes to your point about better players being able to play longer irons in SGI.

You'll also see tour pros going with GI long irons. A lot of the Nike guys have Vapor Fly Pro long irons, some Titleist guys go with the 716 T-MB 3 and 4.

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Agreed. The loft or number on the iron is merely a reference in your head to yardage. Good luck!

"Jacked" lofts used to bother me as well, until I realized ^this^.  I think of them as a relative sequence...not, "This is a 7-iron", but "this is the 7th club in a sequence".  Silly that it matters to me, but it does.

 

[Lihu]

9 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

"Jacked" lofts used to bother me as well, until I realized ^this^.  I think of them as a relative sequence...not, "This is a 7-iron", but "this is the 7th club in a sequence".  Silly that it matters to me, but it does.

It only matters to me when my son is aiming at the 185 flag with a 7i and I need to aim at the 150 flag.

[pumaAttack]

I think its hilarious when a PGA Tour announcer says a golfer is hitting a "6-iron" into a green, or whatever.  As though that has an universal meaning behind it.  

[sirhacksalot]

I struggle with gaps and have considered getting a half set adjusted to 6* gaps instead of the traditional 4* and just dropping the clubs that become obsolete.  My 8 and 9 iron are extremely close in distance anyway.  so are my 4 and 5. 

[onthehunt526]

1 hour ago, sirhacksalot said:

I struggle with gaps and have considered getting a half set adjusted to 6* gaps instead of the traditional 4* and just dropping the clubs that become obsolete.  My 8 and 9 iron are extremely close in distance anyway.  so are my 4 and 5. 

@sirhacksalotThe newer SGI irons would probably benefit you. Your 8i to 9i problem, would be solved. Most SGI sets are around 5° to 6° gaps in the shorter clubs. Have you considered taking out your 4i for a 4-hybrid?

[WUTiger]

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

... Someone like @WUTiger who has a lower swing speed than I, would definitely benefit from an SGI iron. ...

@mvmac has an SGI 4-iron, which goes to your point about better players being able to play longer irons in SGI.

I have been fitted for irons a couple of times in recent seasons - only bought once. Generally, the fitters recommend GI heads with circa 100 gr. steel shafts.

GI irons such as my X20 Tours work fine when I swing smoothly. I had two rounds last year when I parred all the par 3 holes - but didn't break 90 due to long club disasters. The X20 Tours now have NS Pro 8950 GH R.flex, a high launch low-spin shaft.

And, GI vs. SGI needs some translation due to recent TM-type speed slots in the longer irons. In the GI SLDRs, the speed-slotted 4i flies deadly straight off the tee, but the 4H is a bit more reliable off the fairway. (The speed-slot helps generate a hybridish ball flight - see prior post).

Anyway, I need to get my swing into tolerances - as per my Member Swing clips - before I worry too much about equipment tweaks.

[sirhacksalot]

4 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

@sirhacksalotThe newer SGI irons would probably benefit you. Your 8i to 9i problem, would be solved. Most SGI sets are around 5° to 6° gaps in the shorter clubs. Have you considered taking out your 4i for a 4-hybrid?

As mentioned in another thread I am kind of a cheap club ho.  So yeah I do have a Adams ls 4 hybrid but I don't like it . I do however prefer my 2 or 3 hybrid to a 3 wood or 5 wood.  Weird I know.  Is there a SGI with a thinner top line?  I just can't seem to get along with super chunky clubs.

[onthehunt526]

2 hours ago, sirhacksalot said:

As mentioned in another thread I am kind of a cheap club ho.  So yeah I do have a Adams ls 4 hybrid but I don't like it . I do however prefer my 2 or 3 hybrid to a 3 wood or 5 wood.  Weird I know.  Is there a SGI with a thinner top line?  I just can't seem to get along with super chunky clubs.

Well, The Exotics E8 for one is in the medium range... The XR Pro though not SGI seems thinner to me... even the XR 16 isn't too bad... 

I'm tempted to dump my 3 hybrid for a SGI 3 or 4 iron, I hit the M2 7-iron again today, and the ball explodes of the face, its like a rocket. Though the spin on the 7-iron was around 2500 rpm lower than I'm used to. But I was killing it, I mean crushing it... 190 to 195 on a GC2 CARRY!!! 

[WUTiger]

On 3/21/2016 at 0:12 PM, sirhacksalot said:

I struggle with gaps and have considered getting a half set adjusted to 6* gaps instead of the traditional 4* and just dropping the clubs that become obsolete.  My 8 and 9 iron are extremely close in distance anyway.  so are my 4 and 5. 

Take a look at the original version of Short Game Bible by Dave Pelz book. He suggests doing something like this for one's iron set.

[Mike Boatright]

 

 

Yes the lofts are low but it's a nice design and a great looking head. I'm more concerned about offset and feel and not so much loft, These irons are designed to go up and the low loft lowers the spin most noticeable on 4 irons and not so much on the 8 or 9. Take an old blade 8 iron and bend in stronger 3 degrees to make it 36 degrees or so and it would play very much like the m2 8 iron at 33 degrees, Give them identical lengths and the same shaft and the blade would spin more but go the same height not to mention more consistent distance. Blades when hit dead center go the same distance given the same swing speed every time which is the difference between a missed green and a 2 foot tap in. Most amateurs play with pinnacles or top flites and courses with medium size soft greens so it's non relevant. The m2 8 iron will go far enough on misses and allow you to hit the green and have putt's. The blade will miss the green short by 10 yards that's the difference it's really up to you! For me the range that's essential is 160 to 172 yards it's a longer shot I broaden my target and want to be pin high on the dance floor.

 

You can see the differnece below in offset

Edited March 24, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[onthehunt526]

 

http://www.greatgolfdeals.com/taylormade-m2-irons---steel.html

 

Yes the lofts are low but it's a nice design and a great looking head. I'm more concerned about offset and feel and not so much loft, These irons are designed to go up and the low loft lowers the spin most noticeable on 4 irons and not so much on the-7-8. Take an old blade 8 iron and bend in stronger 3 degrees to make it 36 degrees or so and it would play very much like the m2 8 iron at 33 degrees, Give them identical lengths and the same shaft and the blade would spin more but go the same height not to mention more consistent distance. Blades when hit dead center go the same distance given the same swing speed every time which is the difference between a missed green a 2 foot tap in. Most amateurs play with pinnacles or top flites and courses with medium size soft greens so it's non relevant. The m2 will go far enough on misses and allow you to hit the green and have putt's. The blade will miss the green short by 10 yards that's the difference it's really up to you! For me the range that's essential is 160 to 172 yards it's a longer shot I broaden my target and want to be pin high on the dance floor.

 

You can see the differnece below in offset

@Mike Boatright In the TaylorMade M2 irons,  there is more offset in the 4 iron (6+ mm) than the PW (3 mm) and wedges (2.5 mm)... there is even less in the M2 Tours. It looks like that TM's offset in the M2 irons are about typical of todays SGI irons.

[onthehunt526]

In short, there are so many factors, that determine why SGI irons have to have less loft than a player's iron. CG, MOI, and higher COR are just a pieces of the puzzle.