Short Game Issues!

[Abu3baid]

6 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Oh your not impressed were you supposed to be? For one i'm in my office right now so I can't display a video and next time I go out the course I doubt ill post one from my chincy 12 megapixel camera. Responses like these are non productive and ridiculous! I was adding some relevant information to help the poster here and was trying to back up this with the fact that i'm very good at chipping. What i'm saying works wonders and is basically the most effective way to get up and down, and if he trys what i'm saying it could fix his flaws.

Yes, anyone that says I am pro level at anything is only saying it to impress others.  My comment was the nice way of saying I call bullshit.  Then I also fail to understand what it is you even recommended.  

Let me put it this way, try giving advice with less self-absorption and ego boosters and let your advice do the talking.  By the way, backing up anything with I'm really good at it so take my advice will rarely work.

[Ernest Jones]

5 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Even flop shots have shaft lean in no way to you ever want negative shaft lean unless maybe it's a severe uphill bunker shot or something and you don't want to dig even then neutral at best.

I'm just going to disagree and move on. 

[natureboy]

7 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Chipping is contacting the ball then ground with the leading edge and shaft lean. Pitching is contacting the ground then ball with bounce first contact and little to no shaft lean (or even negative shaft lean). The mechanics are in no way the same. 

That may be the definition that's commonly adopted on this site, or by you personally, but it's far from a universal one in golf. There's a great many people (Phil Mickelson e.g.) who calls a a short greenside shot with early wrist hinge and club release through the ball a 'chip' (starts with shaft lean on b/s and 'holds' the lead hand, but trail arm releases shaft angle through ball a bit exposing bounce). Only difference from the 'pitch' recommended here is that he says to not allow the wrists to break post-impact. he uses the same basic technique at 50 yards. Would you imply Phil doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to golf?

For a great many in golf pitch versus chip is defined by shot length, trajectory, or carry / roll ratio. It even varies a bit by region. Wouldn't it be simpler to just clarify that the 'accepted definition' for folks on this site is such and such rather than implying someone doesn't know what they are talking about just because they use terminology that's commonly accepted elsewhere.

Edited March 31, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Mike Boatright said:

Even flop shots have shaft lean in no way to you ever want negative shaft lean unless maybe it's a severe uphill bunker shot or something and you don't want to dig even then neutral at best.

Seen this thread? Now, the camera angle isn't dead square, but those shots were not hit with a shaft leaning forward. Not relative to the path of the club, not relative to the target line, not relative to the ball flight, not relative to my stance… nada.

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

That may be the definition that's commonly adopted on this site, or by you personally, but it's far from a universal one in golf.

Cool. @saevel25 was using the definition we use here, so… he's talking about a pitch shot. It's completely appropriate for someone to enforce the same definition the OP was using.

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

There's a great many people (Phil Mickelson e.g.) who calls a a short greenside shot with early wrist hinge and club release through the ball a 'chip' (starts with shaft lean on b/s and 'holds' the lead hand, but trail arm releases shaft angle through ball a bit exposing bounce). Only difference from the 'pitch' recommended here is that he says to not allow the wrists to break post-impact. he uses the same basic technique at 50 yards. Would you imply Phil doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to golf?

Two things:

• Phil is talking about a chip shot. I'd agree that it's a "hinge and hold" type of method. He's not talking about a pitch shot, but @saevel25 is.
• There are more differences than just "allowing the wrists to break post-impact."

9 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Wouldn't it be simpler to just clarify that the 'accepted definition' for folks on this site is such and such rather than implying someone doesn't know what they are talking about just because they use terminology that's commonly accepted elsewhere.

He did clarify, and then he didn't imply or state that the person didn't know what they were talking about. Seriously, what did you read? My additions in red:

7 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

It's not the distance or the fly/roll ratio that separates the two, it's the mechanics. Chipping is contacting the ball then ground with the leading edge and shaft lean. Pitching is contacting the ground then ball with bounce first contact and little to no shaft lean (or even negative shaft lean). Clarifying/informing. The mechanics are in no way the same. Statement of disagreement.

The OP here, in this case, is using the terms the way they're used here.

Chips - shots that use primarily the leading edge and engage little to no bounce/glide. Ball must be struck first/cleanly if the lie is clean (if in the rough, still relatively cleanly).

Pitch - shots that use primarily the bounce/glide and engage little to none of the leading edge. Ball does not need to be struck cleanly from even a tight lie.

[natureboy]

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

• Phil is talking about a chip shot. I'd agree that it's a "hinge and hold" type of method. He's not talking about a pitch shot, but @saevel25 is.

See the lob shot toward the end of the part 2 video I posted. Is that a 'chip' just because he doesn't re-hinge his wrists on the follow-through? Phil calls it that, but IMO it's precariously close to your basic 'pitch' with extending rather than 'soft arms & wrists' on the follow through. Phil's seems a bit more 'arm swing' and less 'pivot driven' than your stock pitch. I'm not saying they are exactly the same, just pointing out the commonalities on the continuum between shot types that can lead to confusion in terminology.

Quote

He did clarify, and then he didn't imply or state that the person didn't know what they were talking about. Seriously, what did you read? My additions in red:

He said in 'no way' are the mechanics the same. I would agree they aren't exactly the same, but they have very many elements in common. IMO by using such unequivocal language the OP's guilty of the same sort of didactic statement that @Mike Boatright often makes.

Quote

The OP here, in this case, is using the terms the way they're used here.

Chips - shots that use primarily the leading edge and engage little to no bounce/glide. Ball must be struck first/cleanly if the lie is clean (if in the rough, still relatively cleanly).

Pitch - shots that use primarily the bounce/glide and engage little to none of the leading edge. Ball does not need to be struck cleanly from even a tight lie.

See the lob shot toward the end of part 2 video of Phil's 'chipping'.

You can define the differences how you like. What you call a particular shot is not really important to me as long as you communicate your meaning well. Lots of the golf world uses different definitions. By your definition above a two-hop and stop (struck ball first with shaft lean) mid-trajectory shot from 40 yards that carried more than it rolled out would be a 'chip', yes? Or did you omit that a 'chip' and / or 'pitch' also has to be greenside / near green in the above definition? What would you call a short 'punch shot' from 20 yards that flew more than it rolled? Calling it just that might be the clearest, but many expert golfers would call it a pitch and many would call it a chip.

It makes sense to aim for a consistent definition with the instruction on this site. All I'm saying is that yours doesn't always jibe with the wider terminology used throughout the wider world of golf (which has very inconsistent definitions), and if you and other posters who use your agreed definition don't make the effort to clarify can needlessly exacerbate confusion and arguments with those who are unfamiliar.

Edited March 31, 2016 by natureboy

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

See the lob shot in part 2 video I posted. Is that a 'chip'?

If it's the shot he hits around 1:37, yes.

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

He said in 'no way' are the mechanics the same. I would agree they aren't exactly the same, but they have very many elements in common. IMO by using such unequivocal language the OP's guilty of the same sort of didactic statement that @Mike Boatright often makes.

Lighten up, Francis. If you want to list similarities like "you hold a golf club by the grip end" and stuff, yes, you can come up with a whole bunch of stuff that's the same about the two. But, by and large, every piece is different. Setup is different, the backswing is different, the transition is different, the downswing and follow through are different, the goals and the strike are different.

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

See the lob shot toward the end of part 2 video of Phil's 'chipping'.

Cool. It's a chip. Hinge and hold is a chipping motion. On that shot he sets up in such a way that the bounce is about as exposed as it can be for a chip, but it's a chip by how we define it. I can hit a low pitch, too. That's, as we've said several times before, one of the reasons I don't like traditional definitions for chip and pitch: you can hit a pitch shot to a downhill green that runs a lot more than it flies, but is a pure "pitch" shot. Vice versa with a pure "chip" shot too - it can stop quickly.

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

You can define the differences how you like. What you call a particular shot is not really important to me as long as you communicate your meaning well. Lots of the golf world uses different definitions. By your definition above a two-hop and stop (struck ball first with shaft lean) mid-trajectory shot from 40 yards that carried more than it rolled out would be a 'chip', yes?

Why do you have to keep going back and forth on the terminology? We've defined it for you personally several times.

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Or did you omit that a 'chip' and / or 'pitch' also has to be greenside / near green in the above definition?

We've answered this for you multiple times as well. I've hit pitches from 60 yards out, and chips from that far away, too. And farther.

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

It makes sense to aim for a consistent definition with the instruction on this site. All I'm saying is that yours doesn't always jibe with the wider terminology used throughout the wider world of golf, and if you and other posters who use your agreed definition don't make the effort to clarify can exacerbate confusion and arguments with those who are unfamiliar.

Your point is lost in a thread where the OP is clearly using the terminology as used on the site, and the onus is on others to recognize that, particularly when it's explicitly pointed out.

Now, then, please get back to the actual topic, not another discussion over definitions.

---

Also, note… "chip" and "pitch" are opposite ends of a spectrum. Most shots are somewhere in between the poles.

[natureboy]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

If it's the shot he hits around 1:37, yes.

I said 'the end' try the shot he Phil starts describing around 3:00 in the part 2 video.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I said 'the end' try the shot he Phil starts describing around 3:00 in the part 2 video.

Answer it for yourself. Also, see the "Also, note…" above.

I'm not interested in discussing terminology with you. You get hung up on these - always have - and for no reason as we've been exceedingly clear.

Back to the topic, please, as requested above.

[Ernest Jones]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

If it's the shot he hits around 1:37, yes.

Lighten up, Francis. If you want to list similarities like "you hold a golf club by the grip end" and stuff, yes, you can come up with a whole bunch of stuff that's the same about the two. But, by and large, every piece is different. Setup is different, the backswing is different, the transition is different, the downswing and follow through are different, the goals and the strike are different.

Cool. It's a chip. Hinge and hold is a chipping motion. On that shot he sets up in such a way that the bounce is about as exposed as it can be for a chip, but it's a chip by how we define it. I can hit a low pitch, too. That's, as we've said several times before, one of the reasons I don't like traditional definitions for chip and pitch: you can hit a pitch shot to a downhill green that runs a lot more than it flies, but is a pure "pitch" shot. Vice versa with a pure "chip" shot too - it can stop quickly.

Why do you have to keep going back and forth on the terminology? We've defined it for you personally several times.

We've answered this for you multiple times as well. I've hit pitches from 60 yards out, and chips from that far away, too. And farther.

Your point is lost in a thread where the OP is clearly using the terminology as used on the site, and the onus is on others to recognize that, particularly when it's explicitly pointed out.

Now, then, please get back to the actual topic, not another discussion over definitions.

---

Also, note… "chip" and "pitch" are opposite ends of a spectrum. Most shots are somewhere in between the poles.

That's funny, I was just logging in to say, "well ya, you're holding a golf club in both cases..."

[DrvFrShow]

On 3/30/2016 at 6:02 PM, iacas said:

Make sure your right shoulder is relatively high.

This isn't directed to you because I have super insight into what you were doing. Just saying.

Always go back to right-hand only shots when you get in a short game funk.

Funny you should mention this. I played with a guy on Friday who chipped like this. He held his putter in his left hand and chipped with his right. He was pretty deadly.