Common root causes of flipping

[Buckeyebowman]

I think I need to point out that the Tiger "ole" move is flipping on a classic scale! And what I said about your swing, is not flipping!

As iacas pointed out, you can cast anywhere in your downswing. That's why I included many phrases, including "losing your lag", to cover such eventualities.But, for me, flipping results from a difference in timing in the body's role in the down swing, and that of the arms and hands. It's for when the body is outracing the arms and hands, and you have to "flip" to catch up.

Also, I was suspicious of the vid posted by "senor chiplotle" about right arm loading. All that was about was making the right hand more aware of lag and loading. Turns out the guy may have a point! I remember an article I read many years ago by Nicklaus. He said that the longer you play this game, the more you will come to realize that it's a RIGHT HANDED GAME!

[Rainmaker]

I think I get the difference.  I'm definitely casting, losing lag, etc.  I also have a hip over-rotation thing going on which kind of confuses things.  I've had something of an epiphany with by swinging the club with the fishing rod stuck in the grip as well as a Tour Striker 7 ProX that I picked up used.    

My first big "ah-ha" moment came when I handed the "long club" to my wife . .expecting to see her whack herself with it.  She is actually a really bad golfer but she used to be a high-level softball player and is a generally good athlete.  She did not whack herself with the stick at all.

By watching her do it, I figured out how to do it at reasonable speed . .so i could hit pretty decent half shots with the long club and not whack myself.  Then the Tour Striker arrived in the mail.

At first I couldn't hit the Tour Striker but it didn't take me too long to start hitting the face.  By looking at this thing, you'd think you'd need epic shaft lean to even hit it . .but when I checked the video I had only a small amount of shaft lean (I wasn't casting, though) . .and my hands are still behind my right thigh!

So then I realized that my entire mental picture of my swing needed to shift.  From here on goes the part I'm still working out so could be entirely wrong . .but I feel like I've been imagining the center of my swing to be the center of my body.  I should take into account the actual thickness of my body - the swing goes around the *outside* of it.  Swinging around the "outside" of my body vs some imaginary point in the exact middle would put my hands in front of my left thigh at impact instead of my right.  It would put the bottom of my swing in front of the ball instead of at the ball. 

My instructor, when last I saw him, told me that what I need to work on is rotating my hips *less*.  He also was describing a "violent" flipping action of the wrists . .which now I get also.  He is a "force it until you get it" kind of teacher . .the way I learn from him is forcing the position he wants until I figure out a way to do it naturally . .usually by fixing something in my backswing.  He always give me drills and they always help - but it's usually something else that I come up with on my own that actually gets me to understand it.

He didn't mention casting so I actually might not have been casting before I started trying to rotate my hips less.  .Although he would definitely not mention casting if he thought something else was more important.  I'm not sure because I don't have any video from that time.  But now I get it.  I'm starting to make a picture of what I need to do.  I kind of need to move the circle of my swing in front of me and also change it to a circle on a pedestal (my legs) from a full-body type circle.   

I think I'm going to take further advantage of the community and update my "My Swing" thread with someTour Striker swings . . just as soon as I do 2 things:

1. Rest . .because I have a tendency to very much overdo practice and I need a whole day off.

2.  Re-organize my practice space a little so I can get the ball in frame.

Thanks - I really appreciate it.

[Buckeyebowman]

Interesting points.

The fact that your wife, a high level softball player, did not whack herself with the swing aid does not really surprise me. Somewhere on YouTube I ran into a video by some guy which featured a, nearly interminable, series of slo-mo clips of pro golfers and baseball players hitting the ball. His point was that, in both instances, the player's hands are slightly ahead of the ball at impact.

As far the amount of shaft lean you are seeing, I've heard Bobby Clampett speak about this. According to him, the shaft lean that the player perceives appears far more severe than it actually is. It's some kind of optical illusion.

If your instructor wanted you to throttle back your lower body action, saying that he observed a violent flipping action of the wrists, leads me to believe that your lower body was getting ahead of your upper body. If your instructor thought you were casting I have to believe that he would tell you that.

Could it be that quieting the lower body motion somehow changed the "violent flipping action" of the wrists into a casting motion? I have no way of knowing, but I suppose it's a possibility. Also, he might not mention casting if he thought fixing something else would take care of it, or he just didn't want to put too many thoughts in your mind at one time.

But, it sounds like you have a definite idea of how to proceed, and are on the right track.

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Buckeyebowman

[Rainmaker]

I now think the reason I cast is because I flip my clubface open somewhere in the backswing.  I probably just have gotten so good at it that I can hit the ball with a near vertical shaft lean or maybe even a tiny bit of forward lean.  I do whip my lower body ahead of my upper body . .I think I do that to try and get a better impact . .ie, get the shaft angle a little better by moving myself forwards.  So, when I started trying to quiet my legs, I probably started casting, or at least seeing the impact of it, much more.   

Flipping the clubface open, just a barely perceptible rolling of the forearms causes my whole swing to be "in a different place".  Somehow, I guess our brain can realize the face has opened even we might not be aware of it. 

It's not just the clubface, of course . .I also never really understood the physical motion of "not whacking myself with the stick" . .that was a very different feeling for me.  It's started to feel normal pretty quickly, though . .but I started, of course, shanking a lot . .hitting everything way, way right . .which is how I came to realize that my clubface is flipping open . .which is, primarily, why I was casting in the first place.    I'm almost 73% positive of this.  

[Rainmaker]

Ok - final conclusion because I finally got it! 

I was not flipping my clubface open on the backswing - it was on the downswing.

I did develop this lower body move to compensate - it's really a 3/4 body whip, only my head stays back . .so my impact position is moving forwards, enabling me to square the face with my hands and not suffer too much negative shaft lean. 

I have always struggled with an open clubface.  At first it was a huge slice. I fixed my path and plane but I only compensated for the clubface.  It's a chicken or the egg kind of thing, really .. do I cast because I have an open clubface or do I have an open clubface because I'm planning on casting? 

Anyway - it's all about having the wrong ideas.  What enabled me to start to fix it was the idea that you are standing in waste deep water at address and you want the handle to enter the water before the clubhead.  I wasn't thinking about standing in water but, if I was, I would literally be trying to get them to hit the water at the same time . .because I thought that's what "shallow" meant. 

The water idea isn't even necessarily important by itself . .I was just searching for different ideas and trying them out and videoing my swing and this happened to be the one that turned on the light switch.

Golf can be ironic, eh?  Turns out I needed to do the OPPOSITE of what I thought I needed to do.  Not the first time for that.

So now this move, which seemed utterly impossible to me a few weeks ago, is within my grasp.  I have mastered the "legs quiet" drill my teacher gave me.  I can smash balls without moving my legs at all (except they do react a bit).  I can hit the tour striker without whipping my legs forward (still takes several tries, though). 

Video shows my hands more in the middle of my legs instead of directly over the right thigh and a wee bit of shaft lean.  I see how I can increase it, too - with some more practice.  I didn't get them on video but I know some of the last shots of my session were better than the ones I taped.  On a few of them, in particular, I reached a new level of strike - a really deep, crisp sound. 

The last 2 weeks were like my first 2 years in golf compressed, lol.  The ups, the downs . .the frustration .. the shanks.  You should see the hosel on my 7 iron . . it's absolutely covered in ball prints.  That's one thing I'll say about the Mizuno Mp53's - the off-the-hosel performance is pitiful.  If I were a cub maker, I'd make an UBER Game Improvement iron that had a little face and grooves on the hosel.  Free idea for whoever is bold enough. 

   

[Rainmaker]

Sorry to bump the thread . . .but I have to update it . .

I have gone away from the "standing in water" feel to a shoulder plane idea.  Getting my left shoulder to point at my right instep in the backswing and feeling a downward motion with my right shoulder in the downswing . .and ending up such that it's pointing at my left instep. 

To do this - I had to start to master this "hand thing" that my teacher has been telling me about for several years.  It's always been a drill that I have just never been able to get - but it's about getting a flat left wrist through impact.

I've never been able to get it because I was putting it in the wrong place!!  When my right shoulder moves down through impact - it makes this hand thing fairly natural.  I worked on it for about 1.5 days and then it sort of "disapeared" into my swing. 

 

I'm like 1 week away from not casting anymore . . . .

edit . .and my legs, which is what started this whole thing, have basically become a non-issue.  They move but they are not active like they were. 

 

Edited April 17, 2016 by Rainmaker

[senorchipotle]

On April 10, 2016 at 11:28 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

 

Also, I was suspicious of the vid posted by "senor chiplotle" about right arm loading. All that was about was making the right hand more aware of lag and loading. Turns out the guy may have a point! 

i'm a low single digit cap and am an OG on this board, of course I have a point! lol. Golf can become very technical in its analysis; but physically, if you can get a few moves down in proper sequence it's really not that complicated. It's just hard.

 

And of course the right hand should be aware of lag and loading... it's the body part that's doing all the work!

Edited April 20, 2016 by senorchipotle

[Rainmaker]

I thought Chipotle's video was interesting but I don't think it was my issue.  I wish I did know the 1 thing that caused me to cast.  I guess it was/is a wrong idea - that's the best I can really say.  This wrong idea caused the casting which, turn, caused a lot of other issues.   A bunch of them related to the wrong idea itself and another set related to trying to hit the ball better even though I have this fundamentally wrong idea.

So what is this wrong idea?  I don't know . .really hard to say.  It's definitely about where impact is/should be. 

For me, I need to reduce my right side.  Maybe that's the same as loading it the right way - it's all about how we think about it.  I need to feel like my right shoulder moves *down* from the top of the backswing. 

Then there's this other super key bit . .which is to *allow* my arms to extend.  It feels like they are being pulled into impact - like something is stretching my arms and I'm resisting.  It's not me extending them on purpose.  That one I felt for the first time today and definitely is still elusive. 

But Chipotle is certainly right - if I get 3 or 4 moves correct and in sequence, it's center of the clubface city, lol.  I can only do it pretty slowly right now.

 

 

[senorchipotle]

4 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

I thought Chipotle's video was interesting but I don't think it was my issue.  I wish I did know the 1 thing that caused me to cast.  I guess it was/is a wrong idea - that's the best I can really say.  This wrong idea caused the casting which, turn, caused a lot of other issues.   A bunch of them related to the wrong idea itself and another set related to trying to hit the ball better even though I have this fundamentally wrong idea.

So what is this wrong idea?  I don't know . .really hard to say.  It's definitely about where impact is/should be. 

For me, I need to reduce my right side.  Maybe that's the same as loading it the right way - it's all about how we think about it.  I need to feel like my right shoulder moves *down* from the top of the backswing. 

Then there's this other super key bit . .which is to *allow* my arms to extend.  It feels like they are being pulled into impact - like something is stretching my arms and I'm resisting.  It's not me extending them on purpose.  That one I felt for the first time today and definitely is still elusive. 

But Chipotle is certainly right - if I get 3 or 4 moves correct and in sequence, it's center of the clubface city, lol.  I can only do it pretty slowly right now.

 

 

Are you still casting? If so, just going by what you're saying I firmly believe that if you tried the drill in the video you will feel the pressure of the club "loaded" onto your hand and arm. I'm not sure what you mean by "reduce the right side," but I don't believe that's your problem at all and you probably shouldn't do it. Again, this is all based on not having seen your swing. 

If you're not sure whether or not you're loading the club, you aren't because you'd know. Early extension is directly related to a lack of loading, which done properly sets the plane going into the ball and shallows the angle of the club relative to the ground. A lack of this will produce pull cuts and straight pulls. It may not feel as though you're "over the top," but relative to the ideal swing plane you should be contacting the ball on it is. 

An easy way to check and see is to throw your club. If you take your normal swing and throw it, it will go straight out at your target if you're loaded and high and left if you aren't. Consequently, if it goes to the left you are early extending. 

What you described in "allowing your arms to extent" further solidifies, imho, that you are not consistently loading. The feeling you had of being pulled into impact is the instance in which you did this properly, although you did not realize it. It can happen at any point in the downswing or transition. Hogan did it at the top, sergio does it "much" later down by his hip. With most of the tour players it is done at the top so it is difficult to notice, but it is happening. I'll try to find another video and post it for you. Let me know how the club throwing works for you. 

[Rainmaker]

13 minutes ago, senorchipotle said:

Are you still casting? If so, just going by what you're saying I firmly believe that if you tried the drill in the video you will feel the pressure of the club "loaded" onto your hand and arm. I'm not sure what you mean by "reduce the right side," but I don't believe that's your problem at all and you probably shouldn't do it. Again, this is all based on not having seen your swing. 

If you're not sure whether or not you're loading the club, you aren't because you'd know. Early extension is directly related to a lack of loading, which done properly sets the plane going into the ball and shallows the angle of the club relative to the ground. A lack of this will produce pull cuts and straight pulls. It may not feel as though you're "over the top," but relative to the ideal swing plane you should be contacting the ball on it is. 

An easy way to check and see is to throw your club. If you take your normal swing and throw it, it will go straight out at your target if you're loaded and high and left if you aren't. Consequently, if it goes to the left you are early extending. 

What you described in "allowing your arms to extent" further solidifies, imho, that you are not consistently loading. The feeling you had of being pulled into impact is the instance in which you did this properly, although you did not realize it. It can happen at any point in the downswing or transition. Hogan did it at the top, sergio does it "much" later down by his hip. With most of the tour players it is done at the top so it is difficult to notice, but it is happening. I'll try to find another video and post it for you. Let me know how the club throwing works for you. 

No - I actually did realize it. That pulling feeling is what I want.  It was the first time I ever completely did not cast.  I kind of had the pulling feeling before but it was against bent arms vs straight.  This time it kind of felt like my arms suddenly got 4 inches longer. 

What I was doing before was lunging *out* with my right side and also sliding forward at the same time.  I changed that to my right shoulder going *down* . .which feels like I'm not doing much with it vs before.  

I've quieted my legs a ton - no more whipping.  I'm still awkward with the weight shift and pivot - but I'm really focusing on feeling my backside "wipe the wall" on the backswing and turn forward on the downswing.

My left knee actually used to bend outward on the backswing.  I changed that to bend inward.  My shoulders used to turn super flat . but now I try to point my left shoulder at my right instep taking it back.

I'm practicing now making slow, 3/4 swings . .with just enough momentum to make everything work.  Except for the few times today that I managed to truly not cast. .my casting has gotten way, way better. . but it's still there. 

I'll try the drill in the video . .I know I watched it twice but I can't remember if I tried the drill or not.

Thanks again!

[senorchipotle]

4 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

No - I actually did realize it. That pulling feeling is what I want.  It was the first time I ever completely did not cast.  I kind of had the pulling feeling before but it was against bent arms vs straight.  This time it kind of felt like my arms suddenly got 4 inches longer. 

What I was doing before was lunging *out* with my right side and also sliding forward at the same time.  I changed that to my right shoulder going *down* . .which feels like I'm not doing much with it vs before.  

I've quieted my legs a ton - no more whipping.  I'm still awkward with the weight shift and pivot - but I'm really focusing on feeling my backside "wipe the wall" on the backswing and turn forward on the downswing.

My left knee actually used to bend outward on the backswing.  I changed that to bend inward.  My shoulders used to turn super flat . but now I try to point my left shoulder at my right instep taking it back.

I'm practicing now making slow, 3/4 swings . .with just enough momentum to make everything work.  Except for the few times today that I managed to truly not cast. .my casting has gotten way, way better. . but it's still there. 

I'll try the drill in the video . .I know I watched it twice but I can't remember if I tried the drill or not.

Thanks again!

NP... imho, the best way to get that feeling engrained is to take a piece of 6-8 ft PVC pipe and make it whoosh out in front of you. Your body will naturally coordinate itself to accommodate this, it's hardwired into us. 

[Rainmaker]

3 minutes ago, senorchipotle said:

NP... imho, the best way to get that feeling engrained is to take a piece of 6-8 ft PVC pipe and make it whoosh out in front of you. Your body will naturally coordinate itself to accommodate this, it's hardwired into us. 

Somehow it got hardwired into me that what I want to do is smash the ground a foot behind the ball.  Somehow this feels *right*. All I've learned to do up until now is just not let myself . . .  

I can do the whippy thing with a club if there's no ball.  I can mimic the hand/arm motion of impact.  Put a ball down, though . . and my inner pilot sets a course for 6-12 inches behind it . .and I do what I can to deliver the club, even so.  Well . .I did . . now the healing has begun.

[senorchipotle]

24 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Somehow it got hardwired into me that what I want to do is smash the ground a foot behind the ball.  Somehow this feels *right*. All I've learned to do up until now is just not let myself . . .  

I can do the whippy thing with a club if there's no ball.  I can mimic the hand/arm motion of impact.  Put a ball down, though . . and my inner pilot sets a course for 6-12 inches behind it . .and I do what I can to deliver the club, even so.  Well . .I did . . now the healing has begun.

haha! yeah, the little ball definitely makes things harder. Just try and pause at the top to allow your right hand to set back and your left hand to hinge before you swing. it takes a bit of patience and softening of the wrists. remember, the left and right hands should NOT be doing the same thing.

[senorchipotle]

On April 21, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Rainmaker said:

Somehow it got hardwired into me that what I want to do is smash the ground a foot behind the ball.  Somehow this feels *right*. All I've learned to do up until now is just not let myself . . .  

 

something I just thought about... how is your weight shift? Are you posting up and pivoting on your lead leg? If not, nothing else really matters that much. 

[Rainmaker]

I'm not really sure about my weight shift. It's something I'm planning to ask about in my lesson next week. 

Depending on what you call casting . .I have semi-fixed it.  I definitely have a flat left wrist at impact now.  I'm definitely still throwing away lag.  My hands at impact are have moved from almost behind my right thigh to between my legs (instead of in front of my left thigh, where I want them).  That bit of progress I attribute mostly to 1.  Allowing my wrist to be flat . .ie . .not steering . .and 2.  Getting rid of the huge forward slide that I used to start my downswing with.

I think now it's a sequence issue.  From the top of the backswing, I'm starting always with my hips.  I think what I want to do is drop my arms first and THEN fire my hips. 

I'm having a slight problem with "things falling out of my brain", lol.  ie - I think so hard about my wrists that I make a huge slide.  So I've set up a chair at my left side to keep me from sliding so I can focus fully on dropping the club, then firing the hips . .AND . .letting my arms straighten into impact (ie - don't steer the club). 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Rainmaker

[senorchipotle]

9 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

I'm not really sure about my weight shift. It's something I'm planning to ask about in my lesson next week. 

Depending on what you call casting . .I have semi-fixed it.  I definitely have a flat left wrist at impact now.  I'm definitely still throwing away lag.  My hands at impact are in between my legs instead of in front of my left thigh.  That bit of progress I attribute mostly to 1.  Allowing my wrist to be flat . .ie . .not steering . .and 2.  Getting rid of the huge forward slide that I used to start my downswing with.

I think now it's a sequence issue.  From the top of the backswing, I'm starting always with my hips.  I think what I want to do is drop my arms first and THEN fire my hips. 

I'm having a slight problem with "things falling out of my brain", lol.  ie - I think so hard about my wrists that I make a huge slide.  So I've set up a chair at my left side to keep me from sliding so I can focus fully on dropping the club, then firing the hips . .AND . .letting my arms straighten into impact (ie - don't steer the club). 

 

 

Sounds like the root cause might be a weight shift issue. If you don't have anything solid to pivot from, sequencing becomes very difficult. get a club, take a backswing and post on your left foot, such that if you move it you're going to fall down; really exaggerate this. Then swing from there. You'll notice that your club has dropped a bit and you can hit from the inside without coming over the top and feeling like you're rushing the swing. I think you'll notice that it's very difficult to throw away your lag as well. Usually when you fix the biggest problem, many other things fall into place. I believe this is it.

[Rainmaker]

You could be right . .I realized I can control my weight shift . .but I'm not real sure about what to do with it. I've experimented with "stomping" on the left side at the top of the backswing as well as just leaving my weight on the left side the whole time (ala stack and tilt). 

Most other parts of my swing have flaws but I understand what I want to do. With the weight shift I'm torn between loading the inside of my right heel vs leaving the weight on the left side the whole time.  Mostly I try to load the inside of my right heel. 

I'm not even kidding . .it's at the top of the list of questions for my teacher next week.  I also want to ask about my hip turn as well as my sequencing. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Rainmaker

[senorchipotle]

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

You could be right . .I realized I can control my weight shift . .but I'm not real sure about what to do with it. I've experimented with "stomping" on the left side at the top of the backswing as well as just leaving my weight on the left side the whole time (ala stack and tilt). 

Most other parts of my swing have flaws but I understand what I want to do. With the weight shift I'm torn between loading the inside of my right heel vs leaving the weight on the left side the whole time.  Mostly I try to load the inside of my right heel. 

I'm not even kidding . .it's at the top of the list of questions for my teacher next week.  I also want to ask about my hip turn as well as my sequencing.