Common root causes of flipping

[Rainmaker]

Hey all . .just a quick question to pick your golf brains.  I know (or think I know) a typical cause of flipping is under-rotation.  In this case, we see the golfer facing the camera at impact, wrists approximately between the legs. 

What would cause an picture at impact that shows the hips open to the target, shoulders closed, (flipping) wrists in front of the right thigh?  ie - it essentially looks like the player has continued his swing with his body, but his arms are hanging back to flip at the ball . . . .

Is this primarily caused by letting the club get behind you in the backswing?  Or would there be other causes?

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[bennettl61086]

sounds to me like the players down swing body movement is much quicker than the arms, essentially it sounds like letting the club lag behind to me

[Rainmaker]

49 minutes ago, bennettl61086 said:

sounds to me like the players down swing body movement is much quicker than the arms, essentially it sounds like letting the club lag behind to me

 

That's what I think, too . .there are definitely other flaws in the swing . .but the thing that stands out to me is that by A2, the club and hands are already behind the upper body . .I think they just never catch up.  

Basically at A2, we see the club shaft is parallel to the ground, the arms are behind the upper body.  The body has not started to rotate yet.

 

There are definitely other flaws . .left arm breaking down a bit at A4, too big hip-slide in the downswing.  Head moves about 2 inches off the ball in the start of the backswing . . but overall not too bad with head movement. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Rainmaker
thought of something more to add . . .

[bennettl61086]

I know a few people who suffer from this in varying stages. 

it always seems to me that they are almost trying to rush the body through to let the arms smash the ball as hard as they can and it doesn't always work for them.

The hip slide is the hardest thing to control in an "out of control" golf swing. I used to suffer from this but spent 2 months on a range just hitting balls hands and arms, no body movement. This corrected it once I started to introduce fractional hip and twist movements. Now I don't have a swing as fast as it used to be and it is a lot more controlled... Might work for others too?

[14ledo81]

I think its important to never let the hands get "behind".  Keep the hands/arms in front throughout.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

Hey all . .just a quick question to pick your golf brains.  I know (or think I know) a typical cause of flipping is under-rotation. 

If you mean  under-rotation of the body that can cause it because it's related to other things that cause a flip, not getting your weight forward at impact. 

It could be due to the head dropping away from the target in the downswing. It could be early extension going into impact. Sometimes better players hit a ball a few grooves thin because they early extend. That is kinda a small flip.

It could be just not getting the weight forward. It could be having too much lateral shifting in the swing.  Mostly a flip is a timing moved caused by high handicappers to try not to chunk the ball. That is why a chunk and a flip are typically fixed at the same time. 

The primary cause of a flip is a lack of weight forward at impact. If you get your weight forward and don't turn you can still get your hands forward, but you might drag them too much forward and deloft the club a ton.

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

What would cause an picture at impact that shows the hips open to the target, shoulders closed, (flipping) wrists in front of the right thigh? 

I doubt this would happen. The odd of having open hips and closed shoulders is very very slim. As the upper body passes the ball it slows down. The hips start catching up. So the angle decreases between the two at impact. 

PGA tour players are in the 30-40 degree hips open range with the shoulders square to slightly open at impact. 

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

Is this primarily caused by letting the club get behind you in the backswing?  Or would there be other causes?

I would say no. Most of the time people who flip are those who have a steep angle of attack and the clubhead outside the hands at A6. That is opposite of getting the club stuck. 

That doesn't mean a person doesn't flip if they have the club stuck behind them. It's just not a primary cause. 

Getting stuck behind is related to turn rates, where your hands are at related to the club head

The primary cause of a flip is lack of weight forward at impact. 

 

[Mr. Desmond]

Crap. When you guys get the answer let me know. I am prone to go with @saevel25. Had video last week, weight not going forward and a flip coupled with a narrow width of the swing past impact. While working on downswing sequence, am doing drills and weight forward, added width, turn down left wrist at impact... 

[Rainmaker]

alright . . so I figured out how to get a screenshot out of Huddl Technique!  I didn't really want to go to the trouble of putting a video up on youtube and linking it here.  .but here is the screenhot at impact.  Maybe the shoulders are square or slightly open . .but they look closed to me . .hard to tell.

What caused this impact position?  I can post pics of additional positions if you want (a2, a4, etc).

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

alright . . so I figured out how to get a screenshot out of Huddl Technique! 

I recommend you start your own My Swing thread if you are going to post stuff about your swing. 

This thread is mostly about why flipping happens. 

5 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

I didn't really want to go to the trouble of putting a video up on youtube and linking it here. 

A video would have been better. It's impossible to tell what exactly happens from one screen shot. Again, this thread is about flipping in general. If you want actual fixes on your swing I would make a My Swing thread and post a video. 

6 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

What caused this impact position?  I can post pics of additional positions if you want (a2, a4, etc).

Impossible to tell from one screen shot. Again, post a video in your own My Swing thread. 

 

[Rainmaker]

Gotcha . .I have done that before . .there are some older swings in a My Swing thread.  I may update it . .

I really posted the screenshot in response to you saying it was unlikely that the hips would be open but the shoulders closed . . it's hard to use only words to describe . .so . .impact looks like this picture. 

 

Edit - this is, of course, a real swing at a real ball off a mat into a net . .I just can't get the ball in the frame. 

 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Rainmaker

[mchepp]

We have discussed this topic at great lengths a number of times. Here is thread I recommend you look around.

 

[Rainmaker]

I definitely have read lots about flipping.  I've even seen some of the videos mentioned in that thread, lol.  The reason I ask is that usually when people talk about flipping, the impact position they're talking about is a little different than the one I posted.  The golfer is usually square to the camera.  I know there are lots of causes of flipping - just was curious if anything stood out as likely cause when the impact looks like this . .instead of golfer square to the camera. 

 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/6/2016 at 0:17 PM, Rainmaker said:

alright . . so I figured out how to get a screenshot out of Huddl Technique!  I didn't really want to go to the trouble of putting a video up on youtube and linking it here.  .but here is the screenhot at impact.  Maybe the shoulders are square or slightly open . .but they look closed to me . .hard to tell.

What caused this impact position?  I can post pics of additional positions if you want (a2, a4, etc).

I honestly don't know that I would call this "flipping", but since coming to this site I've learned that certain terminologies are used here that might not match up with terminologies that I have learned over the years. We might be talking about the same thing, just using different words.

Looking at your hand position would be the result of what I call "casting". The back of your right hand is flat, and the back of your left hand is cupped. Exactly the opposite of what you want at impact. This usually arises from "throwing the clubhead from the top", "throwing the clubhead away", "losing your lag", or as I said before "casting".

To me, flipping usually does result from the body getting out in front of the hands and arms, thus the arms get "stuck" behind the body. In a desperate attempt to catch up and square the clubface, you flip your hands and wrists through impact.

I remember a video presentation featuring Tiger Woods and Butch Harmon back when Harmon was coaching him. Tiger did a little demonstration of his "college" swing which he called the Ole' (pronounced Olay) swing, like a bullfighter flipping his cape over a charging bull. It was textbook flipping. Tiger maintained that he, and a lot of college golfers, played that way! If you can time it, and square it up, you can bomb the ball a long way. The idea was to smash it out there as far as you could, find it, and figure out what to do from there. Tiger didn't figure that would work so well on the Tour, so he hired Harmon to find a swing that allowed him to control the ball better.

I also remember an instructor (don't remember who) who said something like this. They call it a golf "swing". But the body doesn't swing, it simply pivots. It serves as a post or support for the swinging of the arms, hands, and club. Don't think that just moving your body takes care of everything else. Remember to swing your arms!

However, I don't think flipping is your problem. Admittedly, the picture shows only a tiny slice of your swing but the hand position tells a lot. I'd work toward trying to establish a proper position at impact, hands ahead of the ball with a forward shaft lean. Hope this helps.

 

[Rainmaker]

10 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I honestly don't know that I would call this "flipping", but since coming to this site I've learned that certain terminologies are used here that might not match up with terminologies that I have learned over the years. We might be talking about the same thing, just using different words.

Looking at your hand position would be the result of what I call "casting". The back of your right hand is flat, and the back of your left hand is cupped. Exactly the opposite of what you want at impact. This usually arises from "throwing the clubhead from the top", "throwing the clubhead away", "losing your lag", or as I said before "casting".

To me, flipping usually does result from the body getting out in front of the hands and arms, thus the arms get "stuck" behind the body. In a desperate attempt to catch up and square the clubface, you flip your hands and wrists through impact.

I remember a video presentation featuring Tiger Woods and Butch Harmon back when Harmon was coaching him. Tiger did a little demonstration of his "college" swing which he called the Ole' (pronounced Olay) swing, like a bullfighter flipping his cape over a charging bull. It was textbook flipping. Tiger maintained that he, and a lot of college golfers, played that way! If you can time it, and square it up, you can bomb the ball a long way. The idea was to smash it out there as far as you could, find it, and figure out what to do from there. Tiger didn't figure that would work so well on the Tour, so he hired Harmon to find a swing that allowed him to control the ball better.

I also remember an instructor (don't remember who) who said something like this. They call it a golf "swing". But the body doesn't swing, it simply pivots. It serves as a post or support for the swinging of the arms, hands, and club. Don't think that just moving your body takes care of everything else. Remember to swing your arms!

However, I don't think flipping is your problem. Admittedly, the picture shows only a tiny slice of your swing but the hand position tells a lot. I'd work toward trying to establish a proper position at impact, hands ahead of the ball with a forward shaft lean. Hope this helps.

 

Yeah - we are talking about the same thing.  I think I thought that was the same as flipping . . .but over the last couple of days I've realized that it's casting .. and I don't really know what flipping is exactly,lol. 

I'm a dedicated caster.  I took some video of me hitting a ball with a penny in front of it . .hitting both the ball and the penny and still casting. 

Now I have half a broken fishing rod stuck into the grip in one of my old clubs and I'm taking half-swings trying not to let the fishing rod whack me in the side.  

 

[senorchipotle]

On April 6, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Rainmaker said:

Hey all . .just a quick question to pick your golf brains.  I know (or think I know) a typical cause of flipping is under-rotation.  In this case, we see the golfer facing the camera at impact, wrists approximately between the legs. 

What would cause an picture at impact that shows the hips open to the target, shoulders closed, (flipping) wrists in front of the right thigh?  ie - it essentially looks like the player has continued his swing with his body, but his arms are hanging back to flip at the ball . . . .

Is this primarily caused by letting the club get behind you in the backswing?  Or would there be other causes?

 

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

over years of watching people hit at the range and my own personal struggles when getting back into the game, I think it's a lack of understanding of the right arm at the top of the backswing and downswing, dependent upon at what point you "load" your right arm. If you don't get that pressure from the club laying down properly in your hand you're pretty much gonna flip every time. It can also be cause by arms crashing into the body, but when you have the right arm loaded in the downswing it's almost impossible to crash into the body, it instinctively makes room for them to swing forward. 

 

 

you may or may not have to adjust your grip in order to accommodate this, but i think it'll help. Make sure you move the ball a little forward than you normally would so you have to get the feeling of reaching out and following through(while keeping your head steady!) and not moving forward with your upper body. It'll be a different feeling for you, like the swing begins and ends much later than what you're used to if you do it correctly. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by senorchipotle
add video

[Buckeyebowman]

That is a very good drill for not letting the wrists break down through impact. Having that picture to look at was huge!

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I honestly don't know that I would call this "flipping", but since coming to this site I've learned that certain terminologies are used here that might not match up with terminologies that I have learned over the years. We might be talking about the same thing, just using different words.

Looking at your hand position would be the result of what I call "casting". The back of your right hand is flat, and the back of your left hand is cupped. Exactly the opposite of what you want at impact. This usually arises from "throwing the clubhead from the top", "throwing the clubhead away", "losing your lag", or as I said before "casting".

FWIW:

• Casting is seen as something more that happens from the top. Casting is an "overhand" type of action so it deals with the stuff near the top of the swing, shortly after transition.
• Flipping is something that happens near impact. Maybe you have decent lag for awhile, but then throw it away late in the downswing.

Casting quite often results in flipping, but you can flip without having cast, too.

[Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

FWIW:

• Casting is seen as something more that happens from the top. Casting is an "overhand" type of action so it deals with the stuff near the top of the swing, shortly after transition.
• Flipping is something that happens near impact. Maybe you have decent lag for awhile, but then throw it away late in the downswing.

Casting quite often results in flipping, but you can flip without having cast, too.

I see . .I actually keep my lag for a little bit - start throwing it away shortly before parallel.  I can hit the ball ok when I'm having a good day.  I think what Buckeye is talking about - the Tiger Ole move - is different thing.  Now that I think about it . .I think my teacher is trying to get me to do that sort of flip/move . .maybe because he thinks I can't change from whipping my lower body ahead of my hands . . or maybe it's a case of "first this, then that"  - I'll have to ask him about it.  

Whatever you call it - I really want to do it.  It's going to take some dedication and focus on my part to get rid of it.     

 

Thanks for the responses - always very helpful.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Rainmaker