Breaking the shaft over right shoulder

[Rainmaker]

I was talking to a friend of mine who is quite an accomplished golfer about how I can't stop casting and throwing away lag, etc.  He said . . .

"When I was playing golf in college I would go to the range and think about how to create as much lag as possible - I would think about breaking the shaft over my right shoulder"

What on Earth?!?

Is this one of those "feel is not real" kind of things?  Or is this something that you could think about?

[Ernest Jones]

Feel not real (obviously...or he would be buying new shafts all the time...)

Let me be clear, there is nothing wrong with using feels, we all use feels. The expression "feel ain't real" is just a caution against chasing feels that don't work for you. By all means, give it a try, but if it doesn't change your picture don't waste too much time on it, as it may be a feel that simply doesn't do for you what it does for him. Feels are not universal.

Lag happens, it's a result of good swing. Work on keys 1-3 and the lag will develope on its own. Don't try to isolate lag and work on it like a piece, it won't happen. Horse then cart, not the other way around. 

[Rainmaker]

Ha - I realize, of course, he doesn't actually break shafts.  My question is more like . .based on the things I feel . .I don't know how you could feel like you might break the shaft over your right shoulder . .is that something you think you could feel?

 

[Rainmaker]

I had to ask him for clarification but I figured it out.  I thought he was talking about breaking the shaft on *top* of his shoulder (which makes no sense) . . he means this:

Yeeeah . . that has pretty much nothing to do with me.  I like it, though. 

 

I'm not trying to "make lag" . .I'm trying to "not cast".  I have never swung anything in my entire life without casting it . .not a golf club, not a baseball bat.  Maybe that's why I'm so good at fishing.  

But, anyway, what I wanted to know was  . .what the heck did he mean by "breaking the shaft" . .now I get it but it's not a feel I could use at this point.  I didn't think it would be . .he's 1,000 times better than me at golf . ..at least.

 

[Ernest Jones]

5 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

I had to ask him for clarification but I figured it out.  I thought he was talking about breaking the shaft on *top* of his shoulder (which makes no sense) . . he means this:

Yeeeah . . that has pretty much nothing to do with me.  I like it, though. 

 

I'm not trying to "make lag" . .I'm trying to "not cast".  I have never swung anything in my entire life without casting it . .not a golf club, not a baseball bat.  Maybe that's why I'm so good at fishing.  

But, anyway, what I wanted to know was  . .what the heck did he mean by "breaking the shaft" . .now I get it but it's not a feel I could use at this point.  I didn't think it would be . .he's 1,000 times better than me at golf . ..at least.

 

I'm no expert, but I don't know if "trying not to cast" is a great approach either. You don't want to start trying to manipulate things too much with your hands and wrists. At least, not in an active sense, it will likely slow your swing down, introduce tension and lead to steering.  You need the speed of your pivot and weight shift to keep your arms moving through impact so the clubhead doesn't pass the hands (flip).  

Do you have a swing thread?

[Rainmaker]

I'm not trying to "not cast" directly . . ie by just trying to manipulate the motion.  I *have* tried that, of course.  I'm looking for thoughts/feelings, etc that will help me fix the cause of my casting.  I'm in search-mode.

I do have a myswing thread but it's old - I've fixed a lot of those issues.  I just took a lesson on Monday so I'm in an awkward phase of trying to work some stuff in.  Probably by next week I'll have grooved in whatever I'm going to from this lesson . .and then I'm going to give evolvr a shot.  I just want to avoid over-cramming my head, more than it is, with instruction.  I re-arranged my practice area to get some better video angles.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

I'm not trying to "not cast" directly . . ie by just trying to manipulate the motion.  I *have* tried that, of course.  I'm looking for thoughts/feelings, etc that will help me fix the cause of my casting.  I'm in search-mode.

I do have a myswing thread but it's old - I've fixed a lot of those issues.  I just took a lesson on Monday so I'm in an awkward phase of trying to work some stuff in.  Probably by next week I'll have grooved in whatever I'm going to from this lesson . .and then I'm going to give evolvr a shot.  I just want to avoid over-cramming my head, more than it is, with instruction.  I re-arranged my practice area to get some better video angles.

Get your arms down faster. And of course, make sure you are doing things that don't result in your body wanting to cast the club.

We rarely work on Key #3 directly… Think about that.

A lot of Key #3 issues are a result of a different compensation elsewhere.

[Rainmaker]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Get your arms down faster. And of course, make sure you are doing things that don't result in your body wanting to cast the club.

We rarely work on Key #3 directly… Think about that.

A lot of Key #3 issues are a result of a different compensation elsewhere.

Thanks, Erik.  I think the root causes are in Key 1 and Key 2.  BUT . . I think/believe that there is also another  issue . . a mental "misconception"  . .which is causing me to do Key 1 and Key 2 in such a way that I can still cast it.  Because, really, my mind very much wants to cast it . .and I think that might be the bigger problem.  That's why I'm trying to see if certain ideas might "ring a bell", so to speak.  

At the moment (last couple days), I'm doing 95% thinking and 5% swinging.

It could be in my body vs my mind, I suppose . .but it seems like I have an absolutely nutty ability to defeat any anti-casting drill and I can feel it as soon as I address a ball. 

[dufferifick]

Take this for what it's worth, I'm not an instructor.

Practice the backswing.  Make it a swing, not a slow lifting of the arms and cocking of the wrists.

Make a full backswing a couple of times and let the club head give you a gentle pull at the end.

Do this a couple of times, then when the club head gives you that gentle tug, rotate the lower body, knees and hips toward target.

Your plane should shift a bit, tilt down and out, ala, Hogans 5 Lessons. Repeat and feel what's going on.  Not in super slow motion, just not full speed like you're going to hit a ball.

When you've done this and can feel the transition and timing, finish a swing by rotating shoulders and upper body, medium speed until the hands are about all the way down to lowest spot.  Feel like the release is way too late.  Hit the ball at the last second with the release.  If you do this fast, the club head inertia will try to keep the circle/path correct and the release will be started almost automatically.

Not really anyway to try to swing, just try to get the feel of not letting the hands take over the swing.

Might also think about while at top of back swing, trying to poke the butt end of the club into a big ole bag in front of you.

[Buckeyebowman]

21 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

I had to ask him for clarification but I figured it out.  I thought he was talking about breaking the shaft on *top* of his shoulder (which makes no sense) . . he means this:

Yeeeah . . that has pretty much nothing to do with me.  I like it, though. 

 

I'm not trying to "make lag" . .I'm trying to "not cast".  I have never swung anything in my entire life without casting it . .not a golf club, not a baseball bat.  Maybe that's why I'm so good at fishing.  

But, anyway, what I wanted to know was  . .what the heck did he mean by "breaking the shaft" . .now I get it but it's not a feel I could use at this point.  I didn't think it would be . .he's 1,000 times better than me at golf . ..at least.

 

 

16 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

I'm no expert, but I don't know if "trying not to cast" is a great approach either. You don't want to start trying to manipulate things too much with your hands and wrists. At least, not in an active sense, it will likely slow your swing down, introduce tension and lead to steering.  You need the speed of your pivot and weight shift to keep your arms moving through impact so the clubhead doesn't pass the hands (flip).  

Do you have a swing thread?

I once read some golf instruction that said that "casting" might not be quite the right word to describe the early uncocking of the wrists in the downswing. I'm a fisherman, and I don't care what kind of fishing you're doing, spincasting, baitcasting, spinning, or fly casting, if you don't feel the rod (or club) loading on the back cast (or backswing), you have no business launching into the fore cast, or downswing!

I took up fly fishing rather late in life. When I'm really feeling the rod and my timing is on, I can cast a fly line like nobody's business! When my timing is off, I look like a rank beginner. It seems much the same with my golf swing.

[natureboy]

An old school 'feel' that sounds similar to this was to have a player go to the top of the swing and someone behind him tug on the head of the club (down & toward target) as the player started down so the club head felt extra 'heavy'.

[Rainmaker]

3 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

 

I once read some golf instruction that said that "casting" might not be quite the right word to describe the early uncocking of the wrists in the downswing. I'm a fisherman, and I don't care what kind of fishing you're doing, spincasting, baitcasting, spinning, or fly casting, if you don't feel the rod (or club) loading on the back cast (or backswing), you have no business launching into the fore cast, or downswing!

I took up fly fishing rather late in life. When I'm really feeling the rod and my timing is on, I can cast a fly line like nobody's business! When my timing is off, I look like a rank beginner. It seems much the same with my golf swing.

Of all the names I've heard for it . .I think "early extension" sounds most accurate.  I am an avid fisherman - I do agree that the rod has to load but, at least for me, this does not in any way engage my body beyond my right shoulder.  Even with fly fishing - there's a rhythm, there's the loading of the rod . .but the only really active parts of my body during fly fishing are my right elbow, forearm and wrist.  And I don't "lead with my elbow" or anything in fly fishing - nothing like that. 

But a fishing rod is way, way easier to load than a golf club.  I can load it with just my right forearm and wrist.  I think I can not/have not loaded a golf club.  I'm sure I *can* . .if I can get my mind to make the right picture.  I feel like the critical path for me at this moment doesn't even really involve golf clubs.  I'm watching videos . .videos of pro swings . .videos about casting in baseball . .videos about casting in golf . .etc. If something "clicks" with me . .I'll go out and make a few swings.  If that feels good, I'll turn on the video.  But right now I'm in my head . .not external at the moment. 

I really, truly tried to make a general post that is not about my own swing . .sorry this always happens, lol.  By early next week, I promise, I'll update my member swing thread.  I just hope I'll get as much feedback as I get in this section (but I'm also going to try evolvr . .I know they can totally sort me out.  But, as David Leadbetter says, it's ultimately up to me. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Rainmaker

[Ernest Jones]

4 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

Of all the names I've heard for it . .I think "early extension" sounds most accurate.  

Early Extension refers to something else. 

If you want to stop casting/flipping/losing your lag, then you need to work on your pivot and weight shift. You need to have the proper sequence and speed so that the clubhead "lags" behind the hands and only catches up at or just after impact. 

As @iacas said before, you rarely (read never) work on key#3 directly, it comes together on its own as a by-product of getting other things right. 

Improve your pivot (keys 1&2) and your impact position will improve. 

[Rainmaker]

Ahh . ."Early Release" is what I meant . .but, actually, I don't like that one . .sounds like something else.

I don't know how much more clear I can make it . .I'm not *working* on anything . .I'm *thinking* about various things.  I haven't swung the club in 2 days.  The internet is full of ideas . .I've given lots of them a try or at least some mental consideration.  I'm sure each of them works for somebody.  I just need to pick the ones I will think about . .choose a path, so to speak.   

 

[dufferifick]

OK, think no slack.  All ways keep tension in the swing.  If there is slack, you lose.

[Rainmaker]

In my practice today, I worked on a drill from my last lesson - which is to let the club drop from the top of my backswing so that the angle between my shaft and forearm increase in the first part of my downswing - ie - in the transition between backswing and downswing. 

I totally didn't get this at my lesson and I didn't really get it until today.  I've been working on it quite diligently for the last 2 weeks, and today I started getting a really nice increase in the angle just before the "aggressive" part of my downswing.  Then, all of a sudden, it clicked with me what it means "break the shaft over your right shoulder".

I totally did not get that before.  Not that it's a feeling I'm using or think I'm going to use or anything (I might, though) . .but that just completely did not compute with me before today.    

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/30/2016 at 10:31 AM, Rainmaker said:

Ahh . ."Early Release" is what I meant . .but, actually, I don't like that one . .sounds like something else.

I don't know how much more clear I can make it . .I'm not *working* on anything . .I'm *thinking* about various things.  I haven't swung the club in 2 days.  The internet is full of ideas . .I've given lots of them a try or at least some mental consideration.  I'm sure each of them works for somebody.  I just need to pick the ones I will think about . .choose a path, so to speak.   

 

I've also heard Bobby Clampett refer to it as "throwing your lag away". A bit wordy, but I think it's very accurate. Maybe we need a new term, like "unlag". I have to admit I don't like the sound of that.

[Rainmaker]

Another way to think about it is your arms and club are way behind your body in the downswing.  That's how I had to "realize" it.  Of course, I'd heard "keep the club in front of you" a lot of times but I had the wrong "picture" in my head of what that meant.  I was trying to keep the club in front of me like it is at address.  And then I can't understand why my downswing and impact look just like my backswing and address, lol.  

There probably also needs to be a distinction made between severely casting it and just not getting as much lag as you possibly could . .which will probably always be the case, to some degree. 

I kind of realized, for me, this is the "illusion" of golf.  The primary misconception that screws everything up and makes it seem like a magic trick to hit the ball well.  If I think the ball is in between my legs, I'm screwed.  That's an illusion.  The ball is actually well in-front of my lead foot.