Stubborn Steepness

[iacas]

7 hours ago, cartierbresson said:

• Externally rotate my right arm so the club is shallowed 

This sort of works. It works for small swings but getting my right elbow in front of my body forces the face of the club to open significantly. I find it very hard to square the club (it feels like if I rotate too much I might hit the ball with the back of the club). I don't know if I need to combine this with suppinating with left wrist. Also, pn full swings just doing a right elbow drive flatten the plane. I have no clue why it doesn't. Maybe I need more reps.

For most people it's to do more of this.

And I don't agree with supination, per se: it's more palmar flexion and ulnar deviation.

Also:

 

[cartierbresson]

@iacas thanks for the video. I didn't understand it entirely but it seems like they're advocating for laying the club off at the top of the backswing. Correct? What happens when you're taking only quarter or half swings though? Do you lay the club off then too? If yes, how do you do it so quickly? If no, why not? If those smaller swings don't include laying off the club and still manage to be under plane on the downswing, why can't I use that approach for the full swing?  

[iacas]

1 hour ago, cartierbresson said:

@iacas thanks for the video. I didn't understand it entirely but it seems like they're advocating for laying the club off at the top of the backswing. Correct? What happens when you're taking only quarter or half swings though? Do you lay the club off then too? If yes, how do you do it so quickly? If no, why not? If those smaller swings don't include laying off the club and still manage to be under plane on the downswing, why can't I use that approach for the full swing?  

This thread is about where the shaft should be during the downswing in a full swing.

The video is about how the shaft being slightly below the hands plane helps to "square" the face at the bottom of the swing.

And you don't want to be under plane at impact or… you toe (or miss) the ball. Duh.

[RandallT]

Another update:

Here's a summary of some of the technical things that helped me so far. You can visit my specific swing thread if you want to see how I'm doing (progress, but work to do):

• posture (see posture thread here on this site)
• grip stronger (see grip thread here on this site)
• keep left shoulder down on backswing (avoid standing up)
• right elbow in front (get rid of extra arm/hand movement when hips/shoulders stop)
• flat left wrist by top, think palm to sky (helps feel way more controlled, combined with right elbow)
• at A6, flatter shoulders, hips more open. (my tendency to stay closed to the target and tilted back by A6)

Here are specific techniques that have helped me, as I've reviewed this thread (keeping what resonated, discarding what tended not to work for me):

• lots of reps at various drills given to me
• exaggerate, exaggerate, exaggerate
• use alignment rod on butt of club to see where it's pointing (@travisv used that to help him too)
• let lower body start the downswing, and as shoulders get going, think of the hand/arm movement getting a little initial burst horizontally, not vertically. I do feel my forearms rotating a bit (but not actively being manipulated). Just relax and let it happen based on hand path.

 

Most importantly, I wanted to summarize how my overall mental picture of the swing has changed. It has been quite dramatic.

In the Como video in @iacas post above, he says at 18:45 something about being "handcuffed" by an incorrect mental picture of what you need to do. That is exactly the case with me. I can't overstate that enough.

That video definitely hammers home to me why this issue is important, so I won't bore you with that. Great vid. I enjoyed the technical discussion of angular forces and all that. Hopefully, that'll help me solidify the progress in the future.  

(@Rainmaker- props to you, as you mentioned one of the most important things is changing your mental picture. Same idea).

Anyway, the main changes in my mental picture of the swing can be summarized:

• the hand path needs to be more horizontal than vertical from the top.
• don't fear OTT move by moving the hands more horizontally. I was "handcuffed" by that fear of moving the hands to the ball would get me OTT. Trust it, for all the reasons in that Como video above.
• get rid of other images to flatten the club- e.g., my tendency to stand up and flatten shoulders. Wrong image. Gotta keep left shoulder down!
• ultimately for me, I feel like I need more merry-go-round, less ferris wheel. Even though it is subtle on video, the difference in mental picture is quite significant.

This video below shows my old mental picture on the left (mostly), and via my instructor I've been working on the picture on the right (mostly). I'm still working on trusting and gaining the faith the club will whip around naturally to be square at impact if I move the hands more correctly:

Also, the initial flattening move is explained nicely here at 3:10:

I've been doing this drill below in a mirror, making sure I don't stand up and flatten my shoulders to get the shallowing.  I watch Erik's hand path here from the top, and try to put that into my swing image. As you see, the hand path is obviously not horizontal, but my feel is horizontal to get more of what I see below.

 

Hope that helps, all. This is a bit of a consolidation/summary post, and all of the info was previously somewhere in the thread. I just wanted to loop back and describe again what is resonating with me since May of this year.

In truth, it has been important to do lots of iterative things with my instructor, and I doubt I could've just read this post at the time and been like "voila! I get it now." We each likely need to go through a process.

My specifics will be in my swing thread, but I'm hopeful that within a year, this can be fully ingrained with me-- likely as I move onto other pieces with my instructor, as I get to a "good enough" phase of this, and some other priority might be dominant. But based on how I progress, it is easy for me to backslide into old habits.  It has been a bit of struggle, so those of you that think you can fix it in just a week or two- good luck!

[Rainmaker]

Love the progress update!  I've also made a lot of progress since the start of this thread.  One thing we definitely have in common is I've been thinking lately about this "merry go round vs ferris wheel" concept.  Overall . .I think I get better distance with ferris wheel but it's harder for me to do.  I tend write checks with my backswing that my downswing can't cash, so to speak.  

Probably the biggest thing that has changed in my mental picture has been with regard to clubpath . .specifically after impact.  I was pretty good from impact to the top and back .. but I had the incorrect mental picture of the path post-impact . .going in a diagonal line across first base to infinity .. vs now what I see a circular path.  

The other huge change is that I've become a stupid monkey, lol.  When you made your OP . .if you asked me if I was a stupid monkey I would've said something like "that approach probably works for some people but not me.  My mind just doesn't work that way.  It's not the way I learn".  

Partly in response to irrefutable proof of progress in my lessons . .I've given complete control over to my teacher.  This was hard for me to do because I'm very feel based and he teaches in a very literal way . .but we hit upon a pattern of me matching a feel to give me his literal result that just started clicking . .to the point where I don't even ask myself these questions anymore.  

I have literally become a "what do I do to hit it higher, coach"?  "what do I do to hit it farther, coach"? kind of student.  I started actually learning things during my lessons instead of a few weeks later.  Without a good teacher, of course, it won't work . . . but I honestly don't think I could've done it, otherwise.  By "done it" . .I mean that out of 10 swings (this is my practice game lately) I'm getting 5 or 6 swings with really good impact position, good extension, predictable ball flight, etc . . . . don't want to get carried away with my achievements, lol.  

Keep up the good work and keep updating your progress!

[nevets88]

This came up in my social feeds, another way of expressing how to externally rotate the trail shoulder, just need a straw and tape. Could use a chopstick probably. So many different ways to explain a concept.

 

[Hacker James]

@nevets88, definitely "expressive". Could've used the old "hitch hiker" reference. This from your "social feeds"?  Interesting and colorful collection of acquaintances you have 

[Phil McGleno]

Hey-At least he did something other than that stupid knee squat thing.

Even if he does still come off like an ass.-No shit you want the straw to point where the shaft is pointing.

Duh.

All you morons who can not grasp this and do this simple thing are just not worth his time.-He gives up on you.

[Jerry in DC]

Great thread here - this is something that a lot of high cappers, myself included, likely have issues with.  I've written down about 10 things to try next time I go to the range. 

I used to have the retracted trail elbow on the backswing that Erik demonstrated in the 5SK video.  My eVolver instructor made that a priority for me last year, and I think I worked it out reasonably well.  Since then I've been working to shallow out my swing and it's tough - my body just doesn't want to do these things...

Based on this thread, I've realized that I think I'm keeping my lead arm too close to my body in the downswing (going straight down, as that dude in the twitter video said).  I think for slicers, we want to keep everything away from the ball to stop coming OTT, but it can be the wrong thing to do sometimes.  I had huge issues in my backswing because of this before I started lessons. 

I also really relate to the guys who have said that making contact from the proper A6 position is tough.  I'm pretty coordinated, but it feels like an entirely new way of swinging.  I'll shank a bunch of balls just starting from A6, which seems absurd to me.  Just have to keep working though.  Hopefully it's warm enough to hit the range tomorrow. 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Jerry in DC said:

I also really relate to the guys who have said that making contact from the proper A6 position is tough.  I'm pretty coordinated, but it feels like an entirely new way of swinging.  I'll shank a bunch of balls just starting from A6, which seems absurd to me.  Just have to keep working though.  Hopefully it's warm enough to hit the range tomorrow. 

That's normal, especially at first, and isn't necessarily indicative of much.

For example when working on the transition, it's not unusual for my lower body to just kind of "stand there" and not do what it normally does, because so much of my attention is on the transition.

You're doing something different, so not only is that out of whack, but your attention is also elsewhere, and so different parts of your swing might be functioning a bit differently due to the lack of normalcy/attention.

[Jerry in DC]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's normal, especially at first, and isn't necessarily indicative of much.

For example when working on the transition, it's not unusual for my lower body to just kind of "stand there" and not do what it normally does, because so much of my attention is on the transition.

You're doing something different, so not only is that out of whack, but your attention is also elsewhere, and so different parts of your swing might be functioning a bit differently due to the lack of normalcy/attention.

Thanks for the encouraging words.  I definitely noticed things not functioning properly when I focus on something new, particularly when I'm limiting the practice to one section of the swing.  Common examples for me while working on this move are 1) not shifting my weight properly (likely leading to chunks) and 2) for some reason leaning toward the ball (possibly causing the shanks).  I will get this one figured out - then the thing I'm really curious about is how easily this new move will integrate into the full swing.  [Hopefully easily, but I'm not counting on it...]

[nevets88]

"Factors that facilitate shallowing" bullet points.

 

[iacas]

Off the cuff, I’m not sure I agree with the first one.

It changes how “inward” the left arm is, but I don’t feel it really changes the “steepness” of the shaft. (Having your left arm too far out at A5 or thereabout is likely bad, but at the same time, Carl Peterson takes his left arm out and shallows the shaft a bunch (if he didn't, he'd miss the ball or something else terrible).

Right shoulder external rotation changes the right elbow location, too, and I’m almost inclined to say if you externally rotate the trail shoulder, trapping the right elbow behind you more, you’re more likely to then be steep as a result of that (by doing something else to get that right elbow unstuck).

FWIW, I'm in complete agreement if THIS is the kind of "external rotation" he meant:

[nevets88]

So the folks over at Golfwrx are talking about shallowing. I don't how left arm off the chest shallows the club, maybe it's more arms/hand going to ball rather than dropping?

[iacas]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:36 AM, nevets88 said:

I don't how left arm off the chest shallows the club, maybe it's more arms/hand going to ball rather than dropping?

Because the left arm going out wants to drag the mass of the clubhead behind it, which is shallower.

I've covered that many times here.

The mass wants to line up directly behind the force vector… if it's horizontal and to the right more (DL view), the mass will want to fall down to go more horizontal.

[Buckeyebowman]

On 12/4/2016 at 4:10 PM, iacas said:

For most people it's to do more of this.

And I don't agree with supination, per se: it's more palmar flexion and ulnar deviation.

Also:

 

OK, I don't understand those terms, but then I don't have any medical degrees. You're just showing off now aren't you?

However, I have been working on trying to achieve a "flat" left wrist at the top of the backswing. I've watched instructional vids from others who said to just take your address position and bring the clubhead straight up toward your face, and that was wrist cock! Well, for me, if you take that position and transfer it to the top of the backswing, that results in a "cupped" left wrist! So, it seems that some sort of wrist flexion is necessary to achieve the desired result.

The last time we played I had this in mind, plus a swing thought of yours about keeping the right arm as straight as possible throughout the swing. What this resulted in was keeping my forearms closer together increasing my arc, while also gluing my inner upper arms to my pecs!

This resulted in my hitting some wonderful shots. But on the last hole where I could use a driver, I finally achieved, I think, a combination of the two ideas and just flat killed one dead down the middle! My buddy pronounced it my best drive of the day. It felt wonderful.

I'd like you to explain those terms you used and translate them into common English.

[iacas]

On 3/5/2017 at 9:57 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

OK, I don't understand those terms, but then I don't have any medical degrees. You're just showing off now aren't you?

You can look things up on the Internet, you know… ;-)

And no, I'm not showing off… I was responding to the post I quoted… over four months ago, @Buckeyebowman.

On 3/5/2017 at 9:57 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

I'd like you to explain those terms you used and translate them into common English.

[Buckeyebowman]

Come on guy! I was just teasing you a little bit! Like I posted in another thread, "Is there anything you don't do?" Is there anything you're not good at?

According to the diagrams you posted, it would seem that I need just a bit of "palmar flexion" in the left hand, and just a bit of ulnar diviation in the right hand to achieve a flat left wrist at the top with the right hand under the grip. This is supported by work I've been doing at home over the Winter to try to see what my wrists are actually doing in the backswing.

As far as I'm concerned the idea of simply flexing your wrists upward toward your head to demonstrate wrist cock is now a false idea! There's more to it than that!

And like I said before, that last drive in that round felt so smooth, so effortless, and so sweet that I simply have to learn how to do that all the time!