Orlando Gay Night Club Shooting

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

That's harsh! What if you're J-walking or something like that and just happened to have a gun in your possession?

C'mon Lihu, we're not talking about jay walking.  I'm talking about any crimes where a gun is used in the commission of the crime, such as armed robbery, attempted murder, rape, car jacking, etc. 

[Lihu]

6 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

C'mon Lihu, we're not talking about jay walking.  I'm talking about any crimes where a gun is used in the commission of the crime, such as armed robbery, attempted murder, rape, car jacking, etc. 

Yeah, I know, but I think it should be something like automatic life imprisonment with maybe with death penalty on the table? We'd have to be pretty sure of guilt and intent before committing to the death penalty. Often times, there's a little bit of doubt.

[Mr. Desmond]

49 minutes ago, jamo said:

Any further links to websites explaining how to build a fully automatic weapon (including "almost fully auto") will be removed. 

I'm honestly flabbergasted that even needs to be said.

This is a golf forum. The subject of this thread didn't even involve a fully automatic weapon.

Hopefully, the initial link is removed.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Hopefully, the initial link is removed.

Yes, it was already removed by @jamo.

[newtogolf]

3 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Yeah, I know, but I think it should be something like automatic life imprisonment with maybe with death penalty on the table? We'd have to be pretty sure of guilt and intent before committing to the death penalty. Often times, there's a little bit of doubt.

Life in prison means we still have to pay for them.  Where it's a clear cut case, death is the best deterrent.  

[Lihu]

Just now, newtogolf said:

Life in prison means we still have to pay for them.  Where it's a clear cut case, death is the best deterrent.  

Sure.

[baller7345]

For what it's worth.

Family of the AR 15 Creator Speaks Out

[saevel25]

10 minutes ago, baller7345 said:

For what it's worth.

Family of the AR 15 Creator Speaks Out

It sounds like the original intent of the gun was to never be sold to civilians. 

After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."

It wasn't till after Stoner's death in the 90's that suddenly an AR-15 semi-automatic was being made for civilian use. 

 

[Lihu]

50 minutes ago, baller7345 said:

For what it's worth.

Family of the AR 15 Creator Speaks Out

Makes sense, but it's turned into a big phenomenon for hobbyists and such.

In the case of the shooter, I doubt any additional laws would have changed anything.

Political positioning is more likely Obama and Clinton's real position against the Republicans.

I kind of stand in the middle, but would not like to see this burgeoning business disappear either.

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

It sounds like the original intent of the gun was to never be sold to civilians. 

After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."

It wasn't till after Stoner's death in the 90's that suddenly an AR-15 semi-automatic was being made for civilian use. 

 

I don't understand the argument.  1st, hasn't it been determined the ISIS prick didn't use an AR-15?  And 2nd, to quote the gun grabbin, empress herself, "what difference at this point does it make?!?" 

The AR-15 is now a semi-auto, low caliber at that.  We've established it's no different than a .223 semi-auto used to hunt woodchucks and shit, other than its looks.  

Therefore, the family's viewpoints could not be more irrelevant nor moot.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, xcott said:

Not one time in my entire life have I ever thought

"good thing that guy had a gun right there"

Never. That just doesn't happen. I've certainlly been in situations and known people in situations where it would have been much better if there were NOT guns present. 

Guns are used in self defense pretty frequently. Numbers vary but even conservative numbers are in the hundreds of thousands. And many go unreported for obvious reasons.

2 hours ago, jgreen85 said:

There doesn't have to be a revolution. Just saying, there doesn't have to be. People can just say "yea, I'm comfortable with this change in the reading of the Constitution."

And what about legitimate reasons to own guns? My family hunted.

[newtogolf]

This rifle fires the same rounds as the AR-15, mechanically it's the same rifle, but doesn't look as scary.  If the Orlando shooter used this gun, the press wouldn't have likely identified it as an AR-15 or "Assault Rifle".  

The Orlando shooter didn't use an AR-15 but he did also use a 9mm handgun with 17 round magazines, but I've hardly read anything about banning 9mm handguns.  

Most mass shootings are not done with AR-15's or as the media calls them "Assault Rifles", in fact only 11% total (15 mass shootings out of 133 total in last 7 years), you only hear about these because the press and democrats are pushing to ban them.  

I spoke to a police officer today who is against any additional gun laws, his response to me was, the only thing that stops these mass shooters from shooting more people is other people with guns.  

[drmevo]

52 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

This rifle fires the same rounds as the AR-15, mechanically it's the same rifle, but doesn't look as scary.  If the Orlando shooter used this gun, the press wouldn't have likely identified it as an AR-15 or "Assault Rifle".  

The Orlando shooter didn't use an AR-15 but he did also use a 9mm handgun with 17 round magazines, but I've hardly read anything about banning 9mm handguns.  

Most mass shootings are not done with AR-15's or as the media calls them "Assault Rifles", in fact only 11% total (15 mass shootings out of 133 total in last 7 years), you only hear about these because the press and democrats are pushing to ban them.  

I spoke to a police officer today who is against any additional gun laws, his response to me was, the only thing that stops these mass shooters from shooting more people is other people with guns.  

Just playing devil's advocate here, as I'm not totally sure where I fall on this, but that gun as pictured would've been much more unwieldy and would've required more frequent reloading.  In more than a few cases mass shootings have been stopped when the shooter is trying to reload.  If that gun above is pretty much the same, why aren't police forces using them, or the military using selective fire versions?  There are other factors besides being automatic that make the AR/M16-style rifles more suitable for battle, right?

In terms of the pistol, a big part of the "assault weapon" (for lack of a better term) idea is large-capacity magazines, which there has been a push for in the past, although not so much in the wake of Orlando it seems.

57 minutes ago, iacas said:

Guns are used in self defense pretty frequently. Numbers vary but even conservative numbers are in the hundreds of thousands. And many go unreported for obvious reasons.

I haven't read through it yet but this seems like it might be a decent source of information:  http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

Edit:  It's obviously coming from an anti-gun angle as I read through it more.  Still, might contain some relevant info.

Edited June 17, 2016 by drmevo

[newtogolf]

38 minutes ago, drmevo said:

Just playing devil's advocate here, as I'm not totally sure where I fall on this, but that gun as pictured would've been much more unwieldy and would've required more frequent reloading.  In more than a few cases mass shootings have been stopped when the shooter is trying to reload.  If that gun above is pretty much the same, why aren't police forces using them, or the military using selective fire versions?  There are other factors besides being automatic that make the AR/M16-style rifles more suitable for battle, right?

In terms of the pistol, a big part of the "assault weapon" (for lack of a better term) idea is large-capacity magazines, which there has been a push for in the past, although not so much in the wake of Orlando it seems.

The magazine size is state regulated.  I can only buy 10 round magazines in NY (as pictured above).  States regulate magazine capacity, barrel length, whether the stock can be folded or collapsed and if it has a pistol grip.    The handgun he carried held 18 rounds, not minimal by any means.  

In the case of Orlando, given the limited information we had, he was using 30 round magazines which means he would have had to reload his Sig MCX at least 4 times.  The gun was new to him and while it's not rocket science, it takes some time to swap magazines and pull back the bolt to load the first round.  The reload requires two hands and even if he practiced it would take 10 - 15 seconds which would be enough time for someone to try to stop him.  This and some other inconsistencies leads me to believe there were 2 gunmen.  

NY Police forces don't use AR-15's, they just bought M4's for their tactical teams.  Police officers carry 9mm semi-automatic handguns plus shotguns.  SWAT and special forces may use AR-15's but i'm pretty sure they standardized on M4's.  

Most gun experts debate the benefits of AK-47 versus M16, it usually comes down to personal preference.  The .223 / 5.56 is a very fast round, but it's small, SWAT teams that do use it typically use hollow point bullets to maximize soft tissue damage but it's not a great gun for stopping power which is why it can't be used in most states for hunting larger game like deer.  It has very little recoil which makes it easier to hit your target and ideal for women.  

[drmevo]

24 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

The magazine size is state regulated.  I can only buy 10 round magazines in NY (as pictured above).  States regulate magazine capacity, barrel length, whether the stock can be folded or collapsed and if it has a pistol grip.    

Maybe in NY and other states, but none of that is regulated in NH as far as I know. Here you could get 100-round drum magazines if you wanted.  The only regulations are whatever comes down from ATF.

I don't want to get too OT on the police stuff, that wasn't really my point (there are a lot of departments that have AR-15-style weapons, though).  Point is, why aren't they using a rifle like in your picture if they're so similar?  The M4 is a variant of the modern type of platform we're discussing, so I think my point still stands.

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by drmevo

[Mr. Desmond]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Makes sense, but it's turned into a big phenomenon for hobbyists and such.

In the case of the shooter, I doubt any additional laws would have changed anything.

Political positioning is more likely Obama and Clinton's real position against the Republicans.

I kind of stand in the middle, but would not like to see this burgeoning business disappear either.

"and such" ... I guess you mean people who want to kill people.

Perhaps Obama and Clinton are sincerely concerned about deaths of innocents and want to make an effort to decrease that number ... no, that can't be it, can it? 

Talk about political gamesmanship - its name is Ted Cruz and his obvious gamesmanship saying the Dems were playing games because they want to do away with the Bill of Rights -- talk about red meat and gamesmanship - when Ted says the other side is playing games, rest assured it is Lyin' Ted. lol - the guy is an absolute card and fraud -- in my book.

 

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

"and such" ... I guess you mean people who want to kill people.

Perhaps Obama and Clinton are sincerely concerned about deaths of innocents and want to make an effort to decrease that number ... no, that can't be it, can it? 

Talk about political gamesmanship - its name is Ted Cruz and his obvious gamesmanship saying the Dems were playing games because they want to do away with the Bill of Rights -- talk about red meat and gamesmanship - when Ted says the other side is playing games, rest assured it is Lyin' Ted. lol - the guy is an absolute card and fraud -- in my book.

 

11% of mass shootings use "Assault Rifles".  We all know the problem isn't the gun it's the people but we don't want to address the mentally ill and radicals in this country that want to do harm to others.  

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Desmond said:

"and such" ... I guess you mean people who want to kill people.

Perhaps Obama and Clinton are sincerely concerned about deaths of innocents and want to make an effort to decrease that number ... no, that can't be it, can it? 

Talk about political gamesmanship - its name is Ted Cruz and his obvious gamesmanship saying the Dems were playing games because they want to do away with the Bill of Rights -- talk about red meat and gamesmanship - when Ted says the other side is playing games, rest assured it is Lyin' Ted. lol - the guy is an absolute card and fraud -- in my book.

 

Okay, I'll give you that there might be some concern, but there is no law or set of laws that could have prevented this incident.

The shooter's wife is possibly being charged as an accomplice because she didn't call 911 after her husband told her what he was planning. . .I can't imagine what I would be thinking if someone called me on 911 dispatch saying her estranged husband who used to beat her was planning to shoot up a gay night club? She's obviously not really an accomplice, but people are obviously looking for scapegoats.

Guns are also scapegoats.

I'm going back to my original statement. This is horrible.

The only thing I can add is it was not religion, guns nor the poor wife's fault. Just horrible. . .