Brexit - Leave or Remain

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, paininthenuts said:

The fact is our emigration figures to other EU countries is considerably less than the immigration figures. Of course, if we need people from other countries, that is fine, and of course GB citizens may decide to live in other countries, and if these countries want them, that's fine also. The fact is, no country should ever be told they have to take immigrants from a 3rd party. Germany decided to take in over a million Syrian refugees. Most of of these immigrants are young men who decided to abscond from the army, rather than to fight for their country. Needless to say these North African Muslims are creating all sorts of problems. In a few years time Germany will have given them EU passports, in turn they would have had the opportunity to infest our green and pleasant land. 

 

Was the original concept of the EU to emulate our Federal government? If so, it seems like they didn't work out "states rights" properly?

[boogielicious]

16 minutes ago, wannabe said:

Regardless, I hope they "won't get fooled again".

This should make the Ryder Cup more interesting too! 

[Abu3baid]

1 hour ago, paininthenuts said:

That's nit picking. The fact is our emigration figures to other EU countries is considerably less than the immigration figures. Of course, if we need people from other countries, that is fine, and of course GB citizens may decide to live in other countries, and if these countries want them, that's fine also. The fact is, no country should ever be told they have totake immigrants from a 3rd party. Germany decided to take in over a million Syrian refugees. Most of of these immigrants are young men who decided to abscond from the army, rather than to fight for their country. Needless to say these North African Muslims are creating all sorts of problems. In a few years time Germany will have given them EU passports, in turn they would have had the opportunity to infest our green and pleasant land. 

It must make you really upset that a Muslim is the mayor of London?  Maybe in a few years he can be PM.  :)

[Lihu]

24 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

It must make you really upset that a Muslim is the mayor of London?  Maybe in a few years he can be PM.  :)

Possibly PM of the new country of London?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36620401

[taxgolf]

What Brexit makes very clear, is that the EU must reform. A very important signal. Other than that, immigration apart, I fail yet to see what Brittain will gain from leaving the EU.

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, taxgolf said:

What Brexit makes very clear, is that the EU must reform. A very important signal. Other than that, immigration apart, I fail yet to see what Brittain will gain from leaving the EU.

I don't really know what benefit there was of an EU to begin with? Did it improve most of the other countries? Did the economy get better in the larger countries?

Ireland and Scotland have decided to remain so it might possibly split England from them and no more UK (at least they don't really sound "United" any more?). Then London wants to separate. It's going to be a real mess there.

Is there any serious talk of other countries wanting to separate?

[taxgolf]

Well, I have to be humble here. I am not a economic specialist etc. So just my observations, which certainly doesn't mean it's the truth. It's what I make of it.

To me, it was (or is) inevitable that at some point, that the European country's had to start working together in order to form somewhat of a united market, like the USA. One big market, a financial force in the world. It is an economic war out there. But in hindsight, one could argue it started all wrong. Greece is a very fine example. We all knew that their financial household was (is en will be) a mess. It was know in the seventies. They should be left out then. And all the new countrys entering, the EU wasn't ready for that. We will never know if we were better off if every country would have kept there own currency etc. I feel not.  I always felt, left (keeping the status quo before the euro) or right (forming an EU, with now  a Brexit, Greece financial crisis etc.) would bring trouble anyway. Different trouble, but nothing but trouble we would have to deal  with. And it brought good stuff. We will never know if we were better off with a different road. The Netherlands had to pay a huge amount back to the EU not long ago. It was a political storm. It felt like the northern EU countrys (UK, Germany, Netherlands) were punished for their financial discipline. The more south you go, the worse it gets. I think people are fed up with the bureaucracy, stupid rules etc. At the end, where is the identity of a country? Anyway, the strange part of it that you simply can not deny that the last years, the UK got what they wanted for most part. Not using the € but keeping the pound might be the biggest example. The EU did a lot to keep Brittain in the EU. I wouldn't be surprised if we analyze it all in let's say, 2022, the shock isn't that big of what we thought back in 2016. A bit like the Y2K problem. 

'To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day.'

Churchill, 29 September 1959, Woodford, Essex (cited in Langworth, Churchill: In His Own Words)

Anyway, the plunging of the pound might make a round at St. Andrews a bit cheaper.

[Abu3baid]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Possibly PM of the new country of London?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36620401

LOL.. Nice.  Stability is a blessing that many don't appreciate until they don't have it any more.  

In my opinion it is a mistake that they left, but maybe there is a way to make money out of this..  Especially with the pound falling..  I'll have to study it more, but I know that there are people that have probably shorted the pound and made a ton of money with this vote.

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

I don't really know what benefit there was of an EU to begin with? Did it improve most of the other countries? Did the economy get better in the larger countries?

Ireland and Scotland have decided to remain so it might possibly split England from them and no more UK (at least they don't really sound "United" any more?). Then London wants to separate. It's going to be a real mess there.

Is there any serious talk of other countries wanting to separate?

It became one of the world's largest collective economies giving them massive influence on the world's commerce. My fear for England is that Scotland, Wales and Ireland will split and reduce England's presence in the world economy. The population of England is ~54MM and the others ~10MM. But I believe Scotland has a lot of the oil. If they split, it may be difficult for England to stay in as a world influence. 

[nevets88]

Golf industry thoughts:

http://golfweek.com/2016/06/24/brexit-decision-leaves-european-tour-future-cloudy/

[DrvFrShow]

And right wing Brexit leader Nigel Farage admits that a key campaign promise on the side of the Brexit was a complete lie. 

[Chilli Dipper]

35 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

It became one of the world's largest collective economies giving them massive influence on the world's commerce. My fear for England is that Scotland, Wales and Ireland will split and reduce England's presence in the world economy. The population of England is ~54MM and the others ~10MM. But I believe Scotland has a lot of the oil. If they split, it may be difficult for England to stay in as a world influence. 

The worst-case scenario coming out of the Brexit is the distinct possibility that the union will collapse, and that none of the Home Countries are better off separately than they are together. This referendum has a lot of narrative with the Scottish independent vote not too long ago, only the side saying "nobody gets to tell us what to do" has won the day.

7 minutes ago, DrvFrShow said:

And right wing Brexit leader Nigel Farage admits that a key campaign promise on the side of the Brexit was a complete lie. 

I was just about to share that. Considering how close the vote was, I wonder if knowing that would have effected the outcome.

In fact, I'm wary that such a consequential decision could be settled by such a slim majority. Amending the U.S. Constitution requires a much larger threshold for a reason.

[newtogolf]

17 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Yipppeee, we have our own independence day. We are out of the most corrupt and vile organisation in the world. Yes, things will get worse before they get better, and only a foll would have thought otherwise. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, and if we can't make it alone, who in the EU can? I honestly believe that British electorate would have put up with the bureaucracy, the financial outlay, and even the ridiculous regulations. What we couldn't accept is the open border policy. We are a small country creaking at the seams, and we need to get the head count down. As a very large country, it is difficult for the U.S to understand this, but believe me, we are are to to sink, there are so many people here.

Congrats, now that you won your independence make it count.  

[Pete]

5 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

That's nit picking. The fact is our emigration figures to other EU countries is considerably less than the immigration figures. Of course, if we need people from other countries, that is fine, and of course GB citizens may decide to live in other countries, and if these countries want them, that's fine also. The fact is, no country should ever be told they have totake immigrants from a 3rd party. Germany decided to take in over a million Syrian refugees. Most of of these immigrants are young men who decided to abscond from the army, rather than to fight for their country. Needless to say these North African Muslims are creating all sorts of problems. In a few years time Germany will have given them EU passports, in turn they would have had the opportunity to infest our green and pleasant land. 

Sandtrap members outside of the U.K. this is not representative of UK people generally. These views are quite extreme in our society. 

Fortunately the votes across age groups show that we are on the way to a much more tolerant, accepting and inclusive society. We just have an ageing population of relatively nationalistic people that took their opportunity.

and Syria is in Asia (FFS) - idiocracy

[Lihu]

39 minutes ago, Pete said:

Sandtrap members outside of the U.K. this is not representative of UK people generally. These views are quite extreme in our society. 

Fortunately the votes across age groups show that we are on the way to a much more tolerant, accepting and inclusive society. We just have an ageing population of relatively nationalistic people that took their opportunity.

and Syria is in Asia (FFS) - idiocracy

I read many articles to this effect regarding Brexit.  I'm sure most people who voted for it are not that extreme any more, and had other reasons.

[Buckeyebowman]

11 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Yep, I am a Trump fan and live in the UK. I believe that Trump would not only be good for the U.S, but great for the status quo World wide. 

This is independents day for the UK. For to long we have been told what to do by a bunch of un-elected  bureaucrats, who earn an absolute fortune, and have no interest in GB. We have put in £350m a week, only to get back £160m , which has to be spent as the EU has told us. We have to allow the people from 27 other nations to move here and take our houses and jobs, not to mention use our free healthcare, and take our benefits. Of course, we have the right to move to our neighbors 3rd world countries, and use their 3rd world facilities, so what would you do. Only 3 countries in the EU put in more money than they took out, and guess who one is? Over 10,000 employees of the EU parliament earn more than our PM. It's massive bloody corrupt boys club, and getting out is a breath of fresh air. 

Well said! Some people don't seem to understand how invasive the EU was. For Americans on this forum, imagine how you would feel if some unelected body of bureaucrats seated in Edmonton, Alberta, or maybe Montreal, Quebec, Canada, sought to fine and punish small, local grocers for daring to sell sausage by the pound, because that is what their customers are used to, rather than by the kilogram! And they also told you how many immigrants you MUST admit to your country, and what wages you MUST pay people.

The whole thing may have started out as a good idea, to create a trading bloc of such size that it was serious to deal with. But, as always, power corrupts.

11 hours ago, Lihu said:

That sounds like a very attractive reason for the 48% who wanted to "remain". . .So, apparently the United states isn't the only country with idiots.

 

Yes, there are idiots everywhere! It seems the Scots voted convincingly to remain! Robert the Bruce must be spinning in his grave! As for those who wondered if the Scots would vote to leave the UK, they've already had that chance. And, again, they voted to remain a part of the UK rather than becoming independent. Makes one wonder if the Scots are as fond of freedom as we've been taught!

[Silent]

2 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

Well said! Some people don't seem to understand how invasive the EU was. For Americans on this forum, imagine how you would feel if some unelected body of bureaucrats seated in Edmonton, Alberta, or maybe Montreal, Quebec, Canada, sought to fine and punish small, local grocers for daring to sell sausage by the pound, because that is what their customers are used to, rather than by the kilogram! And they also told you how many immigrants you MUST admit to your country, and what wages you MUST pay people.

Well, that a bit overdramatic in my opinion. One of the lies the Brexit politicians told was that more than 40% of the laws are because of the EU. In fact, it's 10% (and wages is not one of them). Meaning 90% of the laws and regulations in GB are local and have nothing to do with the EU. And of those 10% a lot are with consent of the British. 

So.. what do you think will change for the British regarding laws now? I will tell you: not a whole lot since pretty much every law in your book will remain there. What will change is a less stable Sterling Pound, which is a problem since you're on an island. Result in time is more expensive groceries and other goods. What will change is more unemployment; already banks are moving from London to Amsterdam and Frankfurt. That's not only lose of jobs inside those banks, but the people moving away won't spend there money anymore in London so side-effects to other kinds of jobs where they spend their money. And as you may know, there's a big correlation between unemployment and criminality.

Last, you're talking about how many immigrants you MUST take. You can also turn it around. EU divided the amount of immigrants over the whole EU, meaning LESS immigrants move to GB because the EU placed them in Netherlands, Germany, Belgium etc. Ofcourse you can say you will stop them at the border anyway, but without EU more immigrants will try. They have an extra chance in their opinion now. And btw, let's not forget GB is a factor in the amount of refugees because of the bombing; that's when the amounts started to rise big time. So yea, in my book GB is obligated to take some responsibility in the matter.

But anyway, congratulations on the Brexit. Since GB already had some kind of special position in it as a resultof negotiations in the last year, maybe it's a good thing you guys move out of it. Hopefully for you  it doesn't turn out to be a catastrophic descision and the end of GB (Scotland, Northern Ireland).

[paininthenuts]

19 hours ago, Silent said:

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/eu-referendum-uks-youngest-voters-11518690

 

This says a lot in my opinion. The majority of Brexit voters won't even live long enough to see all the consequenses, while the majority of the people who will actually be there in the future voted to Remain.

That is a poignant comment. I am 58 and voted out. It's arguable that I would be better off if we had stayed, especially as I live in the country and don't have to suffer the over crowding directly. I voted out for the good of the future generations. The EU has been a complete flop, and there are only 3 countries out of the 28 who put in more than they take out, and guess who one is. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end for one of the most corrupt organisations of our time