Putting People on the Clock in the U.S. Women's Open

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Dave. Not as slow as she wants, there has to be limits, but in these  in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's, I think the USGA should have given the final group more time to catch up before putting them on the clock. Note correction from my original post, it was 2011, not 2010 that Ryu won the US Open as a result of Seo's group panicking after being put on the clock.

I think the only thing that's been well established is that we're all glad you're not in charge of writing the pace of play rules.

They were given time to catch up. They were falling farther and farther behind.

[Valleygolfer]

1 hour ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Yes, agreed that the Korean's reacted poorly to being put on the clock. No need to jog. Language barriers contributed to the unnecessary panic. Lydia Ko is fluent in English, but only 19 and inexperienced, still Lydia should have taken charge and put a stop to the panic. It was even worse in 2010 with the Korean ladies actually running down the fairway after their tee shots. Koreans in general tend to play slower, more relaxed, more thoughtful about every shot, similar to the way Jack Nicklaus played the game. American women already have the home country advantage, with 3 of the 5 majors in the USA and 0 in Asia. I would like to see the USGA be a bit more accommodating to our foreign guests. Would like seeing others opinions on 1 of my my main points in my original post, that it's unfair to penalize all 3 golfers when it's mostly just 1 of the 3 or even 2 of the 3, that has created the problem.

If you want to play golf, you have to play by the rules and I am sure Park understood this. Taking more than 40 sec after you are on the clock brings attention to you. She might have gotten away with it prior to being on the clock but it is still not within the rules. I don't care how methodical you are, if you are taking too long to make a decision, you get on the clock. The LPGA players rely on their caddies waaaay too much in my opinion causing this slow play to be actually worse than the PGA slow. LPGA tournaments are so painful at times.

[SquirrelNutz]

I think the Fox announcers didn't like the 2016 on the clock controversy either, there were multiple comments by Zinger, Juli, Joe, Brad and others basically saying things like it's hard enough to control your emotions and breathing and adrenaline on a Sunday in the final group of a US Open even without being on the clock.

Hi Valley. I agree with you that most LPGA players rely way too much on their caddies. Lang asking her brother over and over and over if he agreed with her shot strategy started to make me pull for Nordqvist in the playoff. I like old style golfers like Juli Inkster who make their own strategy decisions.

[Hazsa]

1 hour ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I don't see professional slow play as a problem. On TV, almost everyone records so they can fast forward thru the commercials, lining up putts, etc. In person, it gives everyone a chance to catch their breath. When I followed Lydia Ko all the way on Sunday this year in her victory at the Kia Classic in Carlsbad, I was glad the pace wasn't faster so I could get to each of the 18 greens fast enough to see the approach shots. I think most of the other's in Lydia Ko's fun and relaxed army that day would agree. Slow play by amateurs is another matter, an inherent big problem with the game. 

Do they? The whole point of watching live sports is that it's live... Don't think I've ever recorded a day of golf/ cricket/ game of football and watched it back.

[DaveP043]

30 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Dave. Not as slow as she wants, there has to be limits, but in these  in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's, I think the USGA should have given the final group more time to catch up before putting them on the clock. Note correction from my original post, it was 2011, not 2010 that Ryu won the US Open as a result of Seo's group panicking after being put on the clock.

When you suggested that 8 hours would have been fine with you, that pretty much amounts to "as slow as she wants" in my world.

And has been said before in this thread, they don't have to catch up to avoid a penalty, they simply have to play within the required time once it becomes their turn.  

13 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I think the Fox announcers didn't like the 2016 on the clock controversy either, there were multiple comments by Zinger, Juli, Joe, Brad and others basically saying things like it's hard enough to control your emotions and breathing and adrenaline on a Sunday in the final group of a US Open even without being on the clock.

Just because the announcers don't like a rule doesn't mean the rule shouldn't be enforced.  

[SquirrelNutz]

I think the fact that the final group in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's panicked after being put on the clock indicates there is not enough communication between the USGA and the players about what is expected if you get put on the clock. In both 2011 and 2016, the Korean's lack of understanding led to jogging/running. Where were the caddies when they were needed most? Anyone who ever started jogging/running in between shots to finish ahead of a storm or darkness knows it's almost impossible to play well when your heart rate gets way up there.

[newtogolf]

2 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I think the fact that the final group in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's panicked after being put on the clock indicates there is not enough communication between the USGA and the players about what is expected if you get put on the clock. In both 2011 and 2016, the Korean's lack of understanding led to jogging/running. Where were the caddies when they were needed most? Anyone who ever started jogging/running in between shots to finish ahead of a storm or darkness knows it's almost impossible to play well when your heart rate gets way up there.

No one told them to jog or run.  When they were notified they were on the clock their obligation was to not fall further behind.  Instead of running they could have discussed shots less, made less practice swings, pulled clubs faster or took less time reading putts.  

As professional golfers it's on them to understand the rules regarding pace of play.  If they don't know them, they should take some time and learn them.  

[bkuehn1952]

I just read that it took the "Ko/Park/Ji" threesome 5 hours and 43 minutes to play their round on Sunday. Considering that they were hustling to catch up while they were on the clock, that is a pretty slow pace, especially since they likely never waited on the group in front. 

 

 

[SquirrelNutz]

Another question I have relating to the on the clock controversy is why Park as the leading winner on the Korean tour, and not knowing English, didn't bring her regular Korean caddy to California for the US Open? Obviously after so many wins in Korea, Park could have afforded to bring her regular caddy. The whole drawing pictures thing to communicate between Park and her caddy must have seemed likely to create a slow play problem and cost her some shots from the start. All the pictionary delays were not fair to anyone in  Park's groupings of 3. 

[Valleygolfer]

5 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

I think the fact that the final group in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's panicked after being put on the clock indicates there is not enough communication between the USGA and the players about what is expected if you get put on the clock. In both 2011 and 2016, the Korean's lack of understanding led to jogging/running. Where were the caddies when they were needed most? Anyone who ever started jogging/running in between shots to finish ahead of a storm or darkness knows it's almost impossible to play well when your heart rate gets way up there.

 

2 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

  As professional golfers it's on them to understand the rules regarding pace of play.  If they don't know them, they should take some time and learn them.  

@SquirrelNutz Why are you making excuses for these players. PGA players trotted to the tees when they were on the clock. Were you in the PGA's meetings about the rules? It sure seems like they had a good idea that they needed to speed up play.

I am sorry but these are adult women that should know the rules for play regardless. Koreans (or anyone) should prepare ahead of time to play by the rules or bring a Korean speaking caddie to speed things up. Quit expecting everyone to be hand held.

[Jeremie Boop]

1 hour ago, SquirrelNutz said:

Hi Dave. Not as slow as she wants, there has to be limits, but in these  in both the 2011 and 2016 US Open's, I think the USGA should have given the final group more time to catch up before putting them on the clock. Note correction from my original post, it was 2011, not 2010 that Ryu won the US Open as a result of Seo's group panicking after being put on the clock.

I would counter that the ones responsible for "ruining" those Opens were the people who were playing so slow they had to be put on the clock.

[SquirrelNutz]

But what about those in the groups of 3 that were not playing slow? I followed Seo all the way in the final round of her 2010 victory at La Costa. Seo was relaxed and elegant, but not overly slow. It was another player in Seo's group at the 2011 US Open that was struggling and getting into all kinds of trouble that caused the Seo group to fall behind. How was being put on the clock with the lead late in the 2011 US Open fair to Seo and the other player in her group that were not playing overly slow?

[SquirrelNutz]

The on the clock rule would be fair if the 3 players in the group were playing as a team. But since they are playing as individuals, how can it be fair to put the group as a whole on the clock when in some cases, like the 2011 US Open, it's only 1 of the 3 in the group causing them to fall behind? This year it was probably a combination of Park & Ko causing the final group to fall behind, so not as controversial as in 2011, unless you ask Ji, the unfortunate 3rd member of the Park/Ko grouping. Ji was also solidly in contention prior to going on the clock. Kudos to Fox for the graphic showing Park, Ko & Ji as all +2 since being put on the clock and for not being afraid to criticize the USGA. 

[RandallT]

My answer (a lot lately, it seems, as people seem to worry about players' delicate psyche regarding how the rules get applied) is that these are professionals. They should be able to deal with adversity- the course, the weather, being put on the wrong side of the draw, being put on the clock, or any other variable. If they can handle what is thrown at them, then they will prevail.

If there is a player who shoots +2, simply because their group is put on the clock, then I'd suggest that player, on that day, did not have the composure to put up with a twist that was thrown at them. I don't play competitively so maybe this is naive of me, but I'd think that if I were confident in playing my game steadily at a reasonable pace, then having my group put on the clock would help me, not hurt me. It should hurt the slow guys, but keep me better on my own game. If being on the clock gets in my head, then I'd consider that a weakness in my mental game I need to fix. I wouldn't look to some vague sense of fairness to bail me out. Is that way off base?

 

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

No one told them to jog or run.  When they were notified they were on the clock their obligation was to not fall further behind.  Instead of running they could have discussed shots less, made less practice swings, pulled clubs faster or took less time reading putts.  

As professional golfers it's on them to understand the rules regarding pace of play.  If they don't know them, they should take some time and learn them.  

Or if they are a slow player at least have a plan in place for an adjusted routine for when they are on the clock. Sort of like a pitcher having normal and stretch deliveries. They could also hire biathlon coaches to help deal with the expected heart rate issues. They have the money.

17 minutes ago, SquirrelNutz said:

But since they are playing as individuals, how can it be fair to put the group as a whole on the clock when in some cases, it's only 1 of the 3 in the group causing them to fall behind?

That's an issue with applying slow play rules in general. No brilliant solution has been forwarded yet.

2 minutes ago, RandallT said:

My answer (a lot lately, it seems, as people seem to worry about players' delicate psyche regarding how the rules get applied) is that these are professionals. They should be able to deal with adversity- the course, the weather, being put on the wrong side of the draw, being put on the clock, or any other variable. If they can handle what is thrown at them, then they will prevail.

If there is a player who shoots +2, simply because their group is put on the clock, then I'd suggest that player, on that day, did not have the composure to put up with a twist that was thrown at them. I don't play competitively so maybe this is naive of me, but I'd think that if I were confident in playing my game steadily at a reasonable pace, then having my group put on the clock would help me, not hurt me. It should hurt the slow guys, but keep me better on my own game. If being on the clock gets in my head, then I'd consider that a weakness in my mental game I need to fix. I wouldn't look to some vague sense of fairness to bail me out. Is that way off base?

None of the actual players mentioned seemed to be asking for a bail out. Lydia was very gracious in defeat.

[RandallT]

5 minutes ago, natureboy said:

None of the actual players mentioned seemed to be asking for a bail out. Lydia was very gracious in defeat.

I did not mean to imply they weren't gracious. Quite the opposite.

I'm saying that they're professionals, and they don't need us to worry too much about their "delicate psyches." They can and should handle this stuff just fine, I would think. Again, maybe that's naive.

 

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, RandallT said:

I did not mean to imply they weren't gracious. Quite the opposite.

I'm saying that they're professionals, and they don't need us to worry too much about their "delicate psyches." They can and should handle this stuff just fine, I would think. Again, maybe that's naive.

In this day and age, its not popular to expect adults to actually act like adults.  I think to be continually making excuses for a player's poor performance is actually the naive approach.  Much of the instructional side of this site discusses the importance of honestly evaluating your own game.  If a player has problems when he (or she) is put on the clock, or simply can't play well when going at the pace that the rules require of them, an honest evaluation should lead them to want to improve that aspect of their game.

[SquirrelNutz]

Yes, Lydia always seems very gracious in defeat or victory and even had the honesty to say she felt bad because it was searching for her ball in the hazard at 9 that put their group of 3 over the edge in terms of falling behind. A touch of class not to throw some of the blame at Park for her pictionary delays, at least not in the Fox/Lydia interview I saw at the end of their 18 hole rollercoaster ride. Lydia, like Jack Nicklaus, is a slow thoughtful player. Great to see Lydia leading the way out if the dark ages of no fun, no laughs Scottish golf to modern have fun with the game and the spectators Gary McCord, David Feherty, JoAnne Carner type of entertaining fun golf.