OOB Penalty Question

[m4rko]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and was hoping someone could advise me on what I should do. (I really need to study the rules better)

I use an app called 'the grint' to track my handicap and some stats, and I am reluctant to declare a recent round at a new course as on one of the holes I hit a tee shot near the out of bounds and didn't play a provisional, when I went to my ball it was indeed in the hedge past the O/B marker, as I was just playing with a friend and didn't want to hold anyone up by running back to the tee, I just dropped a ball as a penalty and carried on, however I started playing well (for me) and ended up +7 after the 18 holes including my first eagle on a par 4 so I would have liked to declare that round (the grint has trophies etc to highlight things like eagles).

My handicap on there is 10.4 so this was a decent round at a new course.

So I knew the rule about provisional balls and shot penalties but can't find anything about what I do now after the card has been marked? Can I add a 2 shot penalty to the hole in question? The hole was a 6 on a par 4 so do I make it an 8? Or is it simply disqualified because I didn't play a provisional from the tee?

Sorry for going on a bit there but I hate the feeling of cheating or making a score look better than it was, Thanks in advance.

Mark

[Fourputt]

There are two schools of thought on this that both seem to conform to the USGA handicap manual.  

1)  The manual says that if a hole is not played under the rules of golf that it should be scored as par plus any handicap stroke you are allowed for that hole.  

2)  For an unfinished hole, you should mark what you would most likely have scored when you picked up.  

Some say that if the hole is far enough along when you go against the rules that you should still use rule #2, but I think that the manual is clear that Rule #1 applies in your case.  Since it was your tee ball that was OB and subsequently not played correctly from that point, you should take the par for the hole, plus a handicap stroke if allowed by your course handicap for that course.

Basically, if your course handicap is 11, and it was the #3 handicap hole on a par 4 hole, then you would score a 5.  If it was the #14 handicap hole, you would score a 4.

[m4rko]

4 hours ago, Fourputt said:

There are two schools of thought on this that both seem to conform to the USGA handicap manual.  

1)  The manual says that if a hole is not played under the rules of golf that it should be scored as par plus any handicap stroke you are allowed for that hole.  

2)  For an unfinished hole, you should mark what you would most likely have scored when you picked up.  

Some say that if the hole is far enough along when you go against the rules that you should still use rule #2, but I think that the manual is clear that Rule #1 applies in your case.  Since it was your tee ball that was OB and subsequently not played correctly from that point, you should take the par for the hole, plus a handicap stroke if allowed by your course handicap for that course.

Basically, if your course handicap is 11, and it was the #3 handicap hole on a par 4 hole, then you would score a 5.  If it was the #14 handicap hole, you would score a 4.

Hi Fourputt,

Thank you for your fast response.

So i played the ball from the O/B as a drop where it went in, so hit my 3rd from there and ended up with a dreaded 3 putt for a 6. the hole was a Par 4 Stroke Index 17.

what do you think i should be carding?

[DaveP043]

7 hours ago, m4rko said:

I use an app called 'the grint' to track my handicap and some stats, and I am reluctant to declare a recent round at a new course as on one of the holes I hit a tee shot near the out of bounds and didn't play a provisional, when I went to my ball it was indeed in the hedge past the O/B marker, as I was just playing with a friend and didn't want to hold anyone up by running back to the tee, I just dropped a ball as a penalty and carried on, however I started playing well (for me) and ended up +7 after the 18 holes including my first eagle on a par 4 so I would have liked to declare that round (the grint has trophies etc to highlight things like eagles).

My handicap on there is 10.4 so this was a decent round at a new course.

 

6 hours ago, Fourputt said:

There are two schools of thought on this that both seem to conform to the USGA handicap manual.  

1)  The manual says that if a hole is not played under the rules of golf that it should be scored as par plus any handicap stroke you are allowed for that hole.  

2)  For an unfinished hole, you should mark what you would most likely have scored when you picked up.  

Some say that if the hole is far enough along when you go against the rules that you should still use rule #2, but I think that the manual is clear that Rule #1 applies in your case.  Since it was your tee ball that was OB and subsequently not played correctly from that point, you should take the par for the hole, plus a handicap stroke if allowed by your course handicap for that course.

Basically, if your course handicap is 11, and it was the #3 handicap hole on a par 4 hole, then you would score a 5.  If it was the #14 handicap hole, you would score a 4.

Forst, wecome to TheSandTrap, I hope you enjoy your time here.

As @Fourputt quite correctly points out, there are two rules in the handicap manual that could be applied in your situation.  We've discussed them at length in a couple of posts, you may want to go back and read all of the discussion, but I'll try to simplify the opposing point of view (option #2 in his post), which in my opinion is the right way.  You've hit a drive, so you've started the hole.  If, after finding your ball out of bounds, you had (correctly) gone back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot, its reasonably likely that you would have made a 6 on the hole.  That's what I would suggest that you take for handicap purposes.  

1 hour ago, m4rko said:

So i played the ball from the O/B as a drop where it went in, so hit my 3rd from there and ended up with a dreaded 3 putt for a 6. the hole was a Par 4 Stroke Index 17.

Under option 1, none of the strokes you took on the hole would count.  You'd simply take par 4, plus whatever handicap stokes you'd allot (HCP 17, and you play off 11 or 12, so no handicap strokes), so you'd take a 4 for handicap purposes.  In my opinion, that seems unfairly low, given that you've started the hole by hitting OB.  Remember, though, the difference of two strokes in a posted score can't make any more than a 0.2 stroke difference in your Handicap Index.

You can read a lot more discussion about this issue in this thread:

 

[m4rko]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Forst, wecome to TheSandTrap, I hope you enjoy your time here.

As @Fourputt quite correctly points out, there are two rules in the handicap manual that could be applied in your situation.  We've discussed them at length in a couple of posts, you may want to go back and read all of the discussion, but I'll try to simplify the opposing point of view (option #2 in his post), which in my opinion is the right way.  You've hit a drive, so you've started the hole.  If, after finding your ball out of bounds, you had (correctly) gone back to the tee and hit your 3rd shot, its reasonably likely that you would have made a 6 on the hole.  That's what I would suggest that you take for handicap purposes.  

Under option 1, none of the strokes you took on the hole would count.  You'd simply take par 4, plus whatever handicap stokes you'd allot (HCP 17, and you play off 11 or 12, so no handicap strokes), so you'd take a 4 for handicap purposes.  In my opinion, that seems unfairly low, given that you've started the hole by hitting OB.  Remember, though, the difference of two strokes in a posted score can't make any more than a 0.2 stroke difference in your Handicap Index.

You can read a lot more discussion about this issue in this thread:

 

Hi Dave,

 

OK that's great thank you guys for helping on this, i was thinking that taking a par seems way too generous, so if i mark it as a 6 then i don't feel i'm cheating or making myself look better than i actually am (for handicap purposes).

 

Lesson learned if in doubt declare a provisional.... and don't hit that O/B :)

Cheers.

[Club Rat]

Many guys will post their " equitable stroke adjustment" in this situation.

[Fourputt]

19 minutes ago, Club Rat said:

Many guys will post their " equitable stroke adjustment" in this situation.

Which is a lazy way out, and not correct unless they are farther along in the hole than he was.  For him that would be a 7 (one stroke higher than what he might reasonably expect to shoot with a 10 handicap), and if done too often, would have the potential to improperly inflate his handicap.

[Club Rat]

16 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

(one stroke higher than what he might reasonably expect to shoot with a 10 handicap),

Most players will bogey a hole after re-teeing more often than making a second ball par.
Not saying all the time, but typically when a hole starts out bad, it ends up bad.

A bad tee shot creates frustration that often leads to players loss of concentration until they calm down.

30 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

and if done too often, would have the potential to improperly inflate his handicap.

Continuous poor play over a long period of time is the only thing which will increase anyone index, unless there's "intent"
If's it done "too often" as you indicate, that player is most likely struggling and scores would be rising.
I'm seeing the "improperly inflate" possibility?
 

[DaveP043]

48 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Which is a lazy way out, and not correct unless they are farther along in the hole than he was.  For him that would be a 7 (one stroke higher than what he might reasonably expect to shoot with a 10 handicap), and if done too often, would have the potential to improperly inflate his handicap.

Generally, I'd agree that using ESC isn't necessarily the right way to go.  I'd suggest that using par plus handicap, but starting at stroke 3, would be the right thing to do.  That's how I arrived at the 6 I suggested earlier.  Now, if he'd hit TWO balls OB, ESC would indeed be correct.  

I understand that @Fourputt and I don't agree as to which rule should govern, and I'll suggest that discussion on that matter should be done in the thread I referenced earlier.  If I remember right, we pretty much covered the arguments for each interpretation pretty thoroughly there, so I'm not going to start that again here.  For reference, anyone who cares to read the official Rules and Decisions (Rules 4-1 and 4-2)  in order to make a more informed decision can go here:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14377

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

 For him that would be a 7 (one stroke higher than what he might reasonably expect to shoot with a 10 handicap),

ESC is based on Course Handicap, not Index (as I'm sure you know). With a 10.4 Index his ESC would be double bogey if the slope is less than 113, or 7 if the slope is higher.

34 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Generally, I'd agree that using ESC isn't necessarily the right way to go.  I'd suggest that using par plus handicap, but starting at stroke 3, would be the right thing to do.

Dave, neither is correct. ESC is only used when the score or Most Likely Score exceeds the ESC (either double or 7 depending on Course Handicap in this case). If you are going with the unfinished hole scenario, then the score is Most Likely, not par plus handicap strokes. Par plus handicap strokes would only apply if you treat the hole as being unplayed.

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

ESC is based on Course Handicap, not Index (as I'm sure you know). With a 10.4 Index his ESC would be double bogey if the slope is less than 113, or 7 if the slope is higher.

Dave, neither is correct. ESC is only used when the score or Most Likely Score exceeds the ESC (either double or 7 depending on Course Handicap in this case). If you are going with the unfinished hole scenario, then the score is Most Likely, not par plus handicap strokes. Par plus handicap strokes would only apply if you treat the hole as being unplayed.

First, I think the slope would have to be 103 or lower to make his Course Handicap 9, and push the ESC down to double bogey.  A very minor point.

Second, I agree completely.  I was simply saying (without saying it very clearly)  that a reasonable estimate of the most likely score could be made based on looking at par and his handicap, as well as what he was lying when he found his ball was OB.  In this case, lying 2 on the tee (drive OB plus penalty), his most likely score would be 6 (lying 2, plus par 4, plus handicap strokes (none in this particular case)).  If he'd hit two balls OB, lying 4 on the tee, his most likely score would probably be 8, and ESC would then control.

2 hours ago, m4rko said:

OK that's great thank you guys for helping on this, i was thinking that taking a par seems way too generous, so if i mark it as a 6 then i don't feel i'm cheating or making myself look better than i actually am (for handicap purposes).

Depending on your view of the handicap system, taking the higher score might seem generous, as it would tend to produce a higher handicap, giving you a better chance to win later on.  In my view, your handicap should be accurate, and I believe that the "most likely score" approach is the most accurate indication of your play on that hole.

[Fourputt]

2 hours ago, Martyn W said:

Dave, neither is correct. ESC is only used when the score or Most Likely Score exceeds the ESC (either double or 7 depending on Course Handicap in this case). If you are going with the unfinished hole scenario, then the score is Most Likely, not par plus handicap strokes. Par plus handicap strokes would only apply if you treat the hole as being unplayed.

 

 Which is how the handicap manual views a hole not played by the rules.  If you didn't play by the rules, you don't have a legitimate score for that hole, thus it's the same is if it was never played.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

 Which is how the handicap manual views a hole not played by the rules.  If you didn't play by the rules, you don't have a legitimate score for that hole, thus it's the same is if it was never played.

In my view, this is a hole started in accordance with the rules, but not finished by playing within the rules.  As such, I believe it falls in a gray area between the two rules mentioned previously.  Again, I'd refer the OP, and anyone else interested, to the previous discussion, and to the Handicap Rules and Decisions themselves.  We hashed and rehashed this discussion over about 80 posts.

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

 Which is how the handicap manual views a hole not played by the rules.  If you didn't play by the rules, you don't have a legitimate score for that hole, thus it's the same is if it was never played.

I see an inconsistency with that. Unplayed holes and holes not played by the Rules differ in that  for unplayed holes, the maximum number of unplayed holes is five whereas the number of holes not played by the Rules is ten ('the majority'). Not arguing, just wondering if you could explain that?

[CarlSpackler]

The real lesson to be learned here is... If you think you hit one OB, play a provisional. It only takes a few to retrieve it if you are indeed IB. 

[Fourputt]

53 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

I see an inconsistency with that. Unplayed holes and holes not played by the Rules differ in that  for unplayed holes, the maximum number of unplayed holes is five whereas the number of holes not played by the Rules is ten ('the majority'). Not arguing, just wondering if you could explain that?

I don't see that anywhere.  I see the 5 hole maximum for unplayed holes when reporting an 18 hole score, and I see that there is no limit for unfinished holes.  

I don't see the "majority" statement for not playing by the rules in the Handicap Manual.  Can you point me to where you found that?  This is the entire section and the only thing I could find that covers that:

Quote

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Decision 4-2/1 and Section 5-2b.)

 

[Martyn W]

23 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I don't see that anywhere.  I see the 5 hole maximum for unplayed holes when reporting an 18 hole score, and I see that there is no limit for unfinished holes.  

I don't see the "majority" statement for not playing by the rules in the Handicap Manual.  Can you point me to where you found that?  This is the entire section and the only thing I could find that covers that:

 

It comes from 4-2, last year's version. I just noticed that Section 4 Rules are all 'new'. Who (k)new)? ;)

"Shall not post the score if the majority of the holes are not played under the Principles of the Rules of Golf."

[Fourputt]

For the purposes of the overall discussion, there is also a Decision that pertains.  It shows that Dave and I are both right. 

Quote

4-2/1. Explanation of "Holes Not Played" under The Rules of Golf in Accordance with the USGA Handicap System

Q: Are there any circumstances in which it is permissible for a player to record his or her most likely score for a hole, rather than recording par plus handicap strokes even though the hole was not played under the Rules of Golf?

A: Yes. Flexibility has been provided within the USGA Handicap System for a score to remain acceptable for handicap posting purposes in limited situations where the player has not played a hole(s) under the Rules of Golf, but the hole was played in such a manner that the player's score on the hole would be sufficiently accurate for handicap purposes. This policy better ascertains the player's potential ability by attempting to capture more scores for handicap purposes.

Example 1: If a player uses a distance-measuring device or plays a round under preferred lies where a Local Rule is not in effect, the score is acceptable for handicap purposes. (See Decision 5-1e/2 and Section 7.)

Example 2: A player starting, but not finishing a hole in stroke play (e.g., picking up before holing out) records the "most likely score" for handicap posting purposes (See Section 4-1) even though in breach of Rule 3-2 for failing to hole out.

Example 3: For situations that are generally out of the player's control, such as an incorrectly marked golf course, or incorrectly installed hole liners, the player's score for the hole is acceptable for handicap purposes. (REVISED)