Geezerbill's Friend's Preshot Alignment

[saevel25]

Decision 8-2/a1 stipulates that a person can put down a club to help the golfer align themselves, but must move it. Any residual mark left on the ground or in the dew would be acting identical to leaving the club on the ground, which is illegal. 

[Gunther]

On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Geezerbill said:

I have a playing friend who's pre shot routine is to look down the line to his target, then place the club behind the ball with the nose of the club pointing on the target line.He then moves to his address position and dies his waggle etc lifting and lowering his club .I am sure he is breaking some rule by the grounding of his club  behind the ball before he takes his stance ?I don't want to suggest this to him unless I can quote the rule as he dies it with every shot.

So, no rules violation but he ain't helping himself any.  I guarantee the dude sucks with a pre-shot routine like that.  So, your admonishment to him ought to be along those lines, opposed to a rules infraction.  Tell him to get a lesson.

[GLFTPS]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I did. It includes a reasonable distance on either side. Plus, as I said, if you draw a parallel line, you are still indicating the line of play.

Definition:

Decision 8-2a/1 talks about a club placed parallel to the line of play to align the feet and is illegal. It sounds like in your opinion leaving the club there should be legal.

The line your feet are on is not the ;line of play as it is not the direction that you want your ball to travel on.  Forget it.

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

 

The line your feet are on is not the ;line of play as it is not the direction that you want your ball to travel on.  Forget it.

You fail to recognize that the decisions by the USGA already cover your attempt to circumvent the rules. 

There is a thing called, equity. 

Quote

1-4. Points Not Covered by Rules 

If any point in dispute is not covered by the Rules, the decision should be made in accordance with equity.

The rules state you can not keep a club laid on the ground when you swing. So we have to ask, what does a line in the dew accomplish. It accomplishes the same thing as keeping the club on the ground during the swing. In equity they are both illegal actions. 

[Asheville]

4 hours ago, GLFTPS said:

You are confusing alignment with line of play.  The Rules specify that you cannot have a mark that assists in indicating the line of play. The Rules state that you may lie a club at your feet for alignment but remove it before playing a shot. There is no mention of a line in the dew created by lying the club down. I went through Rules training and passed the test and this was brought up in discussion.

You are mis-remembering your training. ;)

[iacas]

3 hours ago, GLFTPS said:

The line your feet are on is not the ;line of play as it is not the direction that you want your ball to travel on.  Forget it.

No. I think you're wrong. We all have been one time or a hundred.

You are not allowed to leave a club along your feet even though it is not directly on your line of play. Same for making a line.

[Rulesman]

I'm not sure. Where is this clarified to indicate an angle of 45* to the line is not permitted?

8-2a .... for the purpose of indicating the line of play,

8-2b .... for the purpose of indicating a line of putt .

8-2a/1 Club Placed on Ground to Align Feet

Q.A player places a club on the ground parallel to the line of play

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Rulesman

[Hacker James]

I am not convinced the dew line marking would be illegal other than from the equity standpoint. In reading the rule, it states that no one can mark the line of play or the player having knowledge of a line of play having been marked. Nicklaus used to pick out a spot a short distance ahead of the ball to indicate his start path, whether it be a particular blade of grass or what not. What if a previous player had a broken tee laying on the ground, it would be hard to prove that the current player had "knowledge" that it was placed there. I would not think that he would be required to move it.   But, I would go back to the equity argument in the case of the aforementioned dew line.

[Hacker James]

another case might be:  supposing you are standing outside the tee box on the left side with your ball inside the markers. You line up your feet using that left marker. Is not this perfectly legal and would serve the same purpose as a line on the turf?  Point is, any ruling can be taken to the extreme and is a matter of interpretation. 

[bkuehn1952]

This is an interesting situation.  Would those of who feel the line in the dew needs to be removed/wiped away also require the footprints in the dew to be wiped away?  The foot prints show exactly where to stand to be aligned with the player's target.

Let's say one has a blind shot to the green.  One walks to the top of the rise and aligns the flagstick with the ball, then walks back.  The foot prints give a perfect aiming mark.  Should the player wipe away the marks in the dew?  If the player's intent was to see where the hole was and not to leave a visible mark to assist his aim, is he in breach of the Rule when the mark was not made for the purpose of aiming but was just incidental to a permitted action?

[Hacker James]

@bkuehn1952 yes, more or less my point. Some get a bit "anal" about the rules. They are not perfect.  As in the tee box situation, who is to say that using a previous player's position is wrong? It may well be the exact place I wanted to stand in any event, i.e. left side for intentional fade, right side for draw. If there is a line parallel to the line of play, you are not drawing your club path along that line precisely and probably would be taking it a little inside,  I wager that you would be hard pressed to be sure your path is exactly parallel even if intended.  Any advantage would be negligible.

[GLFTPS]

32 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

This is an interesting situation.  Would those of who feel the line in the dew needs to be removed/wiped away also require the footprints in the dew to be wiped away?  The foot prints show exactly where to stand to be aligned with the player's target.

Let's say one has a blind shot to the green.  One walks to the top of the rise and aligns the flagstick with the ball, then walks back.  The foot prints give a perfect aiming mark.  Should the player wipe away the marks in the dew?  If the player's intent was to see where the hole was and not to leave a visible mark to assist his aim, is he in breach of the Rule when the mark was not made for the purpose of aiming but was just incidental to a permitted action?

You cannot wipe away the dew - dew is not a loose impediment. Some people here do not understand what the line of play is and use 8-2 for when it does not apply.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

You cannot wipe away the dew - dew is not a loose impediment. Some people here do not understand what the line of play is and use 8-2 for when it does not apply.

I believe you're still wrong.

Please answer this question: if something along your toes (a mark or a line) is not on the "line of play" (even though the line of play includes some distance to either side of the line of play), why do the rules make you remove the club before your stroke?

[Ernest Jones]

24 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

You cannot wipe away the dew

Of course you can, it's dew....

 

Seems to be some pretty impressive mental acrobatics going in this thread. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Ernest Jones said:

Of course you can, it's dew....

Seems to be some pretty impressive mental acrobatics going in this thread. 

Under the rules you can't. See 13-2.

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, GLFTPS said:

You cannot wipe away the dew - dew is not a loose impediment

On the Teeing Ground you can - see exceptions to 13-2

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Under the rules you can't. See 13-2.

Check the exceptions....

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

I am not convinced the dew line marking would be illegal other than from the equity standpoint. In reading the rule, it states that no one can mark the line of play or the player having knowledge of a line of play having been marked.

I strongly believe it's illegal.

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

Nicklaus used to pick out a spot a short distance ahead of the ball to indicate his start path, whether it be a particular blade of grass or what not.

Using a mark that's already there is quite different than making your own mark. A player can't avoid "marks" already being there unless we played golf on 100% perfectly uniform surfaces.

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

What if a previous player had a broken tee laying on the ground, it would be hard to prove that the current player had "knowledge" that it was placed there. I would not think that he would be required to move it.

He's not required to move it.

2 hours ago, Hacker James said:

another case might be:  supposing you are standing outside the tee box on the left side with your ball inside the markers. You line up your feet using that left marker. Is not this perfectly legal and would serve the same purpose as a line on the turf? Point is, any ruling can be taken to the extreme and is a matter of interpretation. 

Again, you didn't place the tee marker there. If you want to take advantage of a situation that's already there for you, go ahead. It's very different than you taking an action to MAKE a mark or something.

2 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

This is an interesting situation.  Would those of who feel the line in the dew needs to be removed/wiped away also require the footprints in the dew to be wiped away?  The foot prints show exactly where to stand to be aligned with the player's target.

It would depend on how the footprints got there. If a player is clearly making "marks" and then walking back and checking their alignment, etc. then I could see that player being penalized as well.

2 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Let's say one has a blind shot to the green.  One walks to the top of the rise and aligns the flagstick with the ball, then walks back.  The foot prints give a perfect aiming mark.  Should the player wipe away the marks in the dew?  If the player's intent was to see where the hole was and not to leave a visible mark to assist his aim, is he in breach of the Rule when the mark was not made for the purpose of aiming but was just incidental to a permitted action?

I would suggest that player walk well to the side of his line of play.

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

@bkuehn1952 yes, more or less my point. Some get a bit "anal" about the rules.

It's not at all about being "anal" about the rules.

The rules are interesting to some people, and understanding the rules can - for some - lead to a deeper appreciation of them and, ultimately, the game we all choose to play.

There are baseball stats nerds, too. Are they just being "anal" or are they simply enjoying the game in a different way?

1 hour ago, Hacker James said:

As in the tee box situation, who is to say that using a previous player's position is wrong?

It's not wrong. You didn't leave the marks.

20 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

Check the exceptions....

I was speaking generally, and in telling him to look at 13-2 he could read the exceptions himself.

[Martyn W]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I was speaking generally, and in telling him to look at 13-2 he could read the exceptions himself.

We both know he's not going to do that :)