Geezerbill's Friend's Preshot Alignment

[GLFTPS]

23 hours ago, iacas said:

I did. It includes a reasonable distance on either side. Plus, as I said, if you draw a parallel line, you are still indicating the line of play.

Definition:

Decision 8-2a/1 talks about a club placed parallel to the line of play to align the feet and is illegal. It sounds like in your opinion leaving the club there should be legal.

Thank you. "Line of Play" is the intended route that your ball is intended to go.  You cannot place a mark along that route. Your feet are not along the line of play as you do not intend the ball to go through your legs.  On the green, you all know that you cannot touch your line of play.  If you take a legal putting stance, you are not standing on your line of play as everyone whoever putted would be taking a two- stroke penalty.  You can lay a club at your feet but must remove it before you play your shot. There is nothing in the Rules about a dew mark as it in not on your line of play.

30 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

On the Teeing Ground you can - see exceptions to 13-2

Check the exceptions....

Yes, you can. You can brush away loose soil and sand as well.

[Martyn W]

4 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

 On the green, you all know that you cannot touch your line of play.

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

We both know he's not going to do that :)

Thanks.

I take it, given the knowledge of the Rules you've displayed here, that you too disagree with @GLFTPS regarding the line made in the dew, @Martyn W?

Just now, GLFTPS said:

Thank you. "Line of Play" is the intended route that your ball is intended to go.

We know this. It also includes a reasonable distance to both sides. And, it's possible to indicate "indicate" the line of play without being ON the line of play.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

Your feet are not along the line of play as you do not intend the ball to go through your legs. On the green, you all know that you cannot touch your line of play.

Or a reasonable distance to the sides. Yes.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

If you take a legal putting stance, you are not standing on your line of play as everyone whoever putted would be taking a two- stroke penalty.

There is a world of difference between placing your feet down and making a mark. The rules allow you to take a stance. Otherwise nobody would ever legally hit a golf ball.

The rules do not allow making a mark to assist you in your play.

Just now, GLFTPS said:

You can lay a club at your feet but must remove it before you play your shot. There is nothing in the Rules about a dew mark as it in not on your line of play.

You're not answering my very simple question: why do the rules require you to remove the club before you play the shot as the club, too, is not in your definition of your "line of play"?

Heck, it seems as though by using your definition, a golfer could lay two clubs down, one inside and one outside of the golf ball by a few inches, both parallel to the line of play to make a little "channel" of sorts, and the golfer could leave them there while making the stroke because, hey, they're not directly touching the precise line of play. Right?

1 minute ago, Martyn W said:

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

@Martyn W, there's a Line of Putt, so why not just say that instead of trying to be so quasi-cryptic about it? And why ignore the general thrust of the conversation just for that?

Especially since there's nothing that says a Line of Play does not also exist on the putting green.

[GLFTPS]

15 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thanks.

I take it, given the knowledge of the Rules you've displayed here, that you too disagree with @GLFTPS regarding the line made in the dew, @Martyn W?

We know this. It also includes a reasonable distance to both sides. And, it's possible to indicate "indicate" the line of play without being ON the line of play.

Or a reasonable distance to the sides. Yes.

There is a world of difference between placing your feet down and making a mark. The rules allow you to take a stance. Otherwise nobody would ever legally hit a golf ball.

The rules do not allow making a mark to assist you in your play.

You're not answering my very simple question: why do the rules require you to remove the club before you play the shot as the club, too, is not in your definition of your "line of play"?

Heck, it seems as though by using your definition, a golfer could lay two clubs down, one inside and one outside of the golf ball by a few inches, both parallel to the line of play to make a little "channel" of sorts, and the golfer could leave them there while making the stroke because, hey, they're not directly touching the precise line of play. Right?

@Martyn W, there's a Line of Putt, so why not just say that instead of trying to be so quasi-cryptic about it? And why ignore the general thrust of the conversation just for that?

Especially since there's nothing that says a Line of Play does not also exist on the putting green.

To answer your question on why you would remove the club if it was not on the line of play---Rule 14-3 states that you may not have abnormal use of equipment. Laying a club on the ground for alignment would be an abnormal use of equipment. Holding a ball in your hand while making a stroke would be another example of abnormal use.  It does not have anything to do with the line of play.  Hope this helps.

22 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

so you can touch the green along the route of your line, tamp down spike marks etc??? who knew?

[Martyn W]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Martyn W, there's a Line of Putt, so why not just say that instead of trying to be so quasi-cryptic about it? And why ignore the general thrust of the conversation just for that?

I am a pedant when it comes to Rules terminology, as all students of the RoG should be ;)

7 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

 

so you can touch the green along the route of your line, tamp down spike marks etc??? who knew?

You are out of your depth, my friend :)

[GLFTPS]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

I believe you're still wrong.

Please answer this question: if something along your toes (a mark or a line) is not on the "line of play" (even though the line of play includes some distance to either side of the line of play), why do the rules make you remove the club before your stroke?

Check the Definition of Loose impediments. Dew and frost are NOT loose impediments.  If you pick the club up under 8-2, you cannot wipe away the dew line as you would be violating Rule 23.  It is clear that no matter what, you will not listen to reason about the Rules and have your own set to go by.  I was just trying to be helpful. I will exit the Sand Trap and not bother you anymore.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

To answer your question on why you would remove the club if it was not on the line of play---Rule 14-3 states that you may not have abnormal use of equipment. Laying a club on the ground for alignment would be an abnormal use of equipment. Holding a ball in your hand while making a stroke would be another example of abnormal use.  It does not have anything to do with the line of play.  Hope this helps.

I disagree. It has to do with the line of play, which is why the Decisions is under 8-2.

You're allowed to lay your clubs on the ground. That's not an unusual use of equipment. I do it all the time. Heck, you can even lay your clubs down in a bunker. What makes this different is that you're doing it to help you align to your line of play.

Quote

8-2a/1 - 

Club Placed on Ground to Align Feet

Q.A player places a club on the ground parallel to the line of play to assist him in aligning his feet properly. Is this permissible?

A.Yes, provided the player removes the club before playing his stroke. Otherwise, a breach of Rule 8-2awould occur.

Rule 8 - Advice; Indicating Line of Play

8 minutes ago, GLFTPS said:

so you can touch the green along the route of your line, tamp down spike marks etc??? who knew?

If you're gonna be sarcastic and suggest someone read the Definitions (all while ignoring the "reasonable distance to the side" [paraphrased slightly] bit), perhaps you should read them yourself? He was talking about the "Line of Putt."

6 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

I am a pedant when it comes to Rules terminology, as all students of the RoG should be ;)

Yes, pedantry is fine, just be more helpful instead of vague and cryptic.  Then maybe you won't get the "I can touch the green?" responses.

1 minute ago, GLFTPS said:

Check the Definition of Loose impediments. Dew and frost are NOT loose impediments.

I never said they were.

1 minute ago, GLFTPS said:

If you pick the club up under 8-2, you cannot wipe away the dew line as you would be violating Rule 23.

Yeah, you're kind of in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, seeing as how you made a mark in violation of rule 8-2… but you still haven't acknowledged that.

1 minute ago, GLFTPS said:

It is clear that no matter what, you will not listen to reason about the Rules and have your own set to go by.

Oh my goodness… I haven't seen anyone with a background in the rules agree with you here. It has nothing to do with "me not listening" or having "my own set." Not one darn thing.

You're interpreting the Rule improperly re: using a club to make a line to assist you in lining up.

I too am a Rules official. I worked a national championship for the USGA this past summer. Got the ornament from the host club and the windbreaker/rain jacket thank you gift and everything.

Sheesh.

[Asheville]

Pick up the phone, GLFTPS, the USGA Rules office accepts phone calls (or send them an email). You've told us that you were taught that making that mark in the dew is allowed. No need to believe the active referees, rules teachers and PGA professionals here who say otherwise.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Asheville said:

Pick up the phone, GLFTPS, the USGA Rules office accepts phone calls (or send them an email). You've told us that you were taught that making that mark in the dew is allowed. No need to believe the active referees, rules teachers and PGA professionals here who say otherwise.

Indeed. And thank you.

@GLFTPS, I get that the Rules are not decided by popularity contests or anything like that, but doesn't it seem odd that all of the "active referees, rules teachers, and PGA professionals" here seem to disagree with your take on this?

[Hacker James]

  ya know, after carefully reading the entire thread before it went off into tangents (sorta), I've changed my mind. Laying a club down and creating a dew line, would not be any different than laying a club down and then drawing a chalk line. The only departure and arguments would arise on whether or not one "may" or "should" erase a dew line on  the teeing ground.  Apparently the exception to 13-2 states that one can.  Its really a moot point (for me) as I would not be laying down a club in the first place. I would simply hold a club waist high , down the intended "stance" line, and position my feet below the line the club is pointing.  Moving on.......

Edited December 31, 2016 by Hacker James

[6Aces]

On 2016-12-30 at 6:35 PM, Martyn W said:

If you are on the PG there IS no line of play

Marty.  (1) Where in the definition of the line of play does it say that it does not include a stroke made from the putting green?  To quote:  The line of play is the direction that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke.  There is no indication that the stroke excludes one taken from the putting green.

(2) In reading Decision 16-1a/4, a player whose ball is ON the putting, removes casual water from the hole. The ruling is "...the player is in breach of 13-2 which prohibits improving the LINE OF PLAY by removing water."

So, the line of putt is always a line of play, but the reverse is not always true.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by 6Aces

[GLFTPS]

I have never heard so much misinformation in a Rules discussion. One "Rules official" here says that the is no line of play on the putting green.- Rule 16 Golf
The “line of putt” is defined in the Rules as “the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green” including “a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line”. The penalty for a breach of Rule 16-1a is loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play.-

 

Another "Rules official" says that the line of play includes where the player is standing.  Unless you intend to hit your shot between your legs, your stance is NOT in the line of play and you need to learn the definition.

As for my point about the dew, let me offer a simpler example. Player A takes his stance on a dewy fairway to play his shot.  He feels that he is not aligned well to the target. He gets behind his ball and notices his foot impressions in the dew are aimed too far to the right. He retakes his stance and adjusts his stance to be better aligned.  How is there a Rules violation there?

I keep seeing condescending remarks about me in e mails as I must be an idiot and do not know anything about the game.  I have two masters degrees and a Ph.D from a famous university. I have written seven books with six on golf. Two have been national best sellers with well over a million copies sold. One made it to # 1 on Amazon.com among sports books.  I have written over 300 articles in magazines and newspapers including the top golf mags. I have been on national radio and TV including The Golf Channel. I have played professionally on mini tours and taught the game for over 30 years.  I have been a Rules official and resource for club pros for years.

I was highly decorated for heroism and wounded twice in combat as a Marine Corps officer.  I am not an idiot as the "Rules Officials" here make me out to be.  Good luck.

Edited January 2, 2017 by GLFTPS

[Asheville]

Such a cri de cœur; good luck to you as well.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, GLFTPS said:

Another "Rules official" says that the line of play includes where the player is standing.

That's not true at all. Re-read what has been written. Re-read the definition yourself.

You have repeatedly failed to answer my questions. If a club laid down to help alignment is not "indicating the line of play" because it is not directly touching the line of play why must it be removed?

Under your application what's to stop someone from scratching a line in the grass to align their feet?

Rather than posting about irrelevant things, and insulting people by putting "rules official" in quotes, perhaps you could actually address the topic?

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, GLFTPS said:

As for my point about the dew, let me offer a simpler example. Player A takes his stance on a dewy fairway to play his shot.  He feels that he is not aligned well to the target. He gets behind his ball and notices his foot impressions in the dew are aimed too far to the right. He retakes his stance and adjusts his stance to be better aligned.  How is there a Rules violation there?

Yes. Rule 8-2  

What does a golf player do when he sets up to the ball? He aligns himself to the line of play. Does this mean parallel, not all the time. Still a golfer can not take his stance with out first making some decision on where he wants the ball to start. So, making any marks to help him align is in fact also helping him determine his line of play since the two are required for the golfer to hit his ball on the line of play he wants. If a player shifts his alignment, he is shifting the line of play. 

Also, you still fail to recognize decision 8-2a/1

As far as equity goes. See decision 8-2a/3. You can't even put down an object to help in the gauging of distance for a pitch shot. This was found in breach of the rules. The object in decisions 8-2a/3 didn't indicate line of play, but indicated some sort of visual help to the golfer in gauging distance. This means by equity any object, markers, marks, etc... placed or used by the golfer to help the golfer in anyway with his shot is illegal. 

1 hour ago, GLFTPS said:

 I have been a Rules official and resource for club pros for years.

I was highly decorated for heroism and wounded twice in combat as a Marine Corps officer.  I am not an idiot as the "Rules Officials" here make me out to be.  Good luck.

All of that is nice. Thanks for serving our country. BUT It doesn't make you right on this. 

 

[GLFTPS]

4 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yes. Rule 8-2  

What does a golf player do when he sets up to the ball? He aligns himself to the line of play. Does this mean parallel, not all the time. Still a golfer can not take his stance with out first making some decision on where he wants the ball to start. So, making any marks to help him align is in fact also helping him determine his line of play since the two are required for the golfer to hit his ball on the line of play he wants. If a player shifts his alignment, he is shifting the line of play. 

Also, you still fail to recognize decision 8-2a/1

As far as equity goes. See decision 8-2a/3. You can't even put down an object to help in the gauging of distance for a pitch shot. This was found in breach of the rules. The object in decisions 8-2a/3 didn't indicate line of play, but indicated some sort of visual help to the golfer in gauging distance. This means by equity any object, markers, marks, etc... placed or used by the golfer to help the golfer in anyway with his shot is illegal. 

All of that is nice. Thanks for serving our country. BUT It doesn't make you right on this. 

 

So if you mean footprints in dew are marks then we need to invent golf shoes that can hover. Laying object or mark to gauge distance has nothing to do whatsoever with what I said.  This is what I mean but misinformation. Do not write about the Rules if you do not know what you are talking about as golfers will get misinformation.

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's not true at all. Re-read what has been written. Re-read the definition yourself.

You have repeatedly failed to answer my questions. If a club laid down to help alignment is not "indicating the line of play" because it is not directly touching the line of play why must it be removed?

Under your application what's to stop someone from scratching a line in the grass to align their feet?

Rather than posting about irrelevant things, and insulting people by putting "rules official" in quotes, perhaps you could actually address the topic?

Ok  I will answer one more time but you will not get it. Rule 16 forbids abnormal use of equipment. Laying a club at your feet to help with alignment is abnormal use of that club.  I give up. Keep spreading misinformation.

[DaveP043]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

This means by equity any object, markers, marks, etc... placed or used by the golfer to help the golfer in anyway with his shot is illegal. 

 

This has come up before, the player can use stuff that's there, like the tee markers, or a tee left by a previous group, or a tuft of grass, as an alignment aid.  He can make a mark, with the specif purpose of indicating the line of play, as long as he removes the mark before taking the stroke.  

The presence of the dew complicates the matter, whether we're talking about laying the club down and picking it back up, or looking at footprints.  In the example by @GLFTPS, the player didn't intend to make marks when he first took his stance, he was simply "fairly taking his stance".  We've all started over after feeling mis-aligned.  Are you suggesting that its a penalty if you've left any kind of noticeable footprint that you might look at when you step back up to play the shot?  That doesn't really seem logical to me, nor does it seem to be what the rules require. 

[GLFTPS]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This has come up before, the player can use stuff that's there, like the tee markers, or a tee left by a previous group, or a tuft of grass, as an alignment aid.  He can make a mark, with the specif purpose of indicating the line of play, as long as he removes the mark before taking the stroke.  

The presence of the dew complicates the matter, whether we're talking about laying the club down and picking it back up, or looking at footprints.  In the example by @GLFTPS, the player didn't intend to make marks when he first took his stance, he was simply "fairly taking his stance".  We've all started over after feeling mis-aligned.  Are you suggesting that its a penalty if you've left any kind of noticeable footprint that you might look at when you step back up to play the shot?  That doesn't really seem logical to me, nor does it seem to be what the rules require. 

I agree 100%