Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[jbro06]

I'd be interested to hear from the bogey gallery which tees you play from.  So many courses set it up different ways, so I'll make up a set.  Which one would be you:

Red: Ladies Tees - 5300 yards

White: Mens Tees - 6000 yards

Blue: Chanpionship Tees - 6600 yards

Black: The Tips - 7000 yards

Me personally i play from the tips, but thats just because its easier for me.  Im long off the tee and rarely come across holes that i need anything more than a 6i on second shot.  I have a 4hy that i have just in case for those pesky super long par 5s.  so i try and play over 7000 when i can

[14ledo81]

Me personally i play from the tips, but thats just because its easier for me.  Im long off the tee and rarely come across holes that i need anything more than a 6i on second shot.  I have a 4hy that i have just in case for those pesky super long par 5s.  so i try and play over 7000 when i can

I usually try to shoot for 8000 yards or better.  It is such a pain to keep overshooting the flag with my tee shot on par fours.

[billchao]

I agree GIR regulation is a fantastic way to keep your scores low, however do you know how much harder that is to do when you are not in a position to make a play for the green...  Can you still make GIR from the rough, sure, i do it intentionally sometimes to take shortcuts. But what im saying is that it makes hitting GIR "easier" if you can keep it in the fairway

I agree with that statement 100%. Fairways generally have less obstacles to hitting a green.

However, my point is that if you're solely looking at a single statistic as a scoring indicator, GIR is much better than fairways hit. You can (albeit not very likely) hit 14 fairways and not a single GIR, and you'd have to get up and down on those holes to make par. You'd score a lot better if you hit (again, not very likely, these examples are simply for academic discussion) 14 GIR and zero fairways.

I understand what you were saying about focusing on hitting the fairway, but that's a focus on improving accuracy. Better accuracy will lead to more fairways hit AND more GIR. Generally, people who miss fairways (at least at our level) are also likely to miss greens, anyway. Improving accuracy will help both fronts, but it doesn't change the fact that GIR is a better measuring stick for scoring.

[RFKFREAK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbro06

Me personally i play from the tips, but thats just because its easier for me.  Im long off the tee and rarely come across holes that i need anything more than a 6i on second shot.  I have a 4hy that i have just in case for those pesky super long par 5s.  so i try and play over 7000 when i can

I usually try to shoot for 8000 yards or better.  It is such a pain to keep overshooting the flag with my tee shot on par fours.

Please, wait until you start overshooting tee shots on par 5's like I do.

[Lihu]

I usually try to shoot for 8000 yards or better.  It is such a pain to keep overshooting the flag with my tee shot on par fours.

Please, wait until you start overshooting tee shots on par 5's like I do.

All right guys, were all bogey here. Be nice. May the first bogey who can hit all fairways cast that first ball.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by jbro06

Me personally i play from the tips, but thats just because its easier for me.  Im long off the tee and rarely come across holes that i need anything more than a 6i on second shot.  I have a 4hy that i have just in case for those pesky super long par 5s.  so i try and play over 7000 when i can

You play the tips because they are the easier tees for you?  Are you saying that playing 6000 yards is more difficult than 7000?  I'm not sure I follow.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

In my absentmindedness, sometimes, I don't keep my eyes on the ball through impact.  My recent lower neck, upper back problem made this worse.  As I lost a bit of my neck's side to side mobility, I could not keep my eyes on the ball through impact.

What about shortening your swing, and rotating about the spine rather than swaying side to side to prevent the painful side motion to the neck?

I've already shortened up and stopped swaying.   It's getting better.   Once I am free of neck/back pain, I am hoping I can shoot below 90 regularly.

[jbro06]

You play the tips because they are the easier tees for you?  Are you saying that playing 6000 yards is more difficult than 7000?  I'm not sure I follow.

it just comes down to my play style, i am better with my mid irons than wedges.  So i want my second shot to be somewhere between 150-200 yards.  And im avg off the tee at 290...  So 6000yd courses become all drive and wedge, with the exception of the few longer holes of course.

[M2R]

...

I guess somewhere around bogey isn't completely arbitrary - but it seems a more logical theory might be to play the "men's" tees until we could scare par.  Or scare 80 frequently.  No matter how long you are, you'll still do better from closer.  No matter how easy the whites are, you might not break 90, and you VERY likely won't break 80.  Tee shots should improve, approach shots should be closer, resulting in more GIR's, closer pin proximity, more shot control, experience with the pressure of shooting a low score, etc.

I just got to thinking about this this weekend and would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Every course/person interaction is going to be unique to that pairing. If a courses stronger elements match up with a golfers stronger skills, then in theory might be easier playing from a bit further back. And the opposite holds true even thought the course overall appears easier if the heart of the courses strength is in an area where a particular golfer is relatively weaker it might be prudent to consider moving up.

My personal goal is to be comfortable, hit some quality golf shots, and enjoy the round. I do not care about score at all, however if I do all those things the score will just naturally take care of itself.  Being comfortable to me means having the "potential" (25% or better chance) of being 160 or less in on every par four with a clear view of the green, fairway or rough doesn't matter. However, someone else might only care about the ultimate score, or their differential, or just being out in the sun for a walk, or ...

This year I have played from 5200 because everyone else was playing there (shot 81) and from 6800 playing by myself as a single because I thought it was the best match for my game (shot 83). I just do not think there can be any formula that is going to work very well. Guidelines on the other hand probably are useful if the course has a recommendation for tees based on something valid. Fully understanding that guidelines are just that guides and will not apply to everyone or perfectly to anyone.

Ultimately I just want to enjoy myself which is what it seems like everyone is ultimately saying ... in one way or another.

[jbro06]

I agree with that statement 100%. Fairways generally have less obstacles to hitting a green.

However, my point is that if you're solely looking at a single statistic as a scoring indicator, GIR is much better than fairways hit. You can (albeit not very likely) hit 14 fairways and not a single GIR, and you'd have to get up and down on those holes to make par. You'd score a lot better if you hit (again, not very likely, these examples are simply for academic discussion) 14 GIR and zero fairways.

I understand what you were saying about focusing on hitting the fairway, but that's a focus on improving accuracy. Better accuracy will lead to more fairways hit AND more GIR. Generally, people who miss fairways (at least at our level) are also likely to miss greens, anyway. Improving accuracy will help both fronts, but it doesn't change the fact that GIR is a better measuring stick for scoring.

Concur.  Ill just say that when i was improving my game, that i was so focused on improving that i didnt keep score when i played...  I gave my self one point for every hit fairway and one point for every GIR. (These were my trouble spots) And i made it a game within a game...  Took some of the stress out of it and help me relax which i think helped me improve more.  Bogey golfers get so caught up in what they shoot, myself included, that they forget that they are trying to get better.  Which leads to them taking chances to lower their score, which forces bad shots, which brings you right back to terrible rounds...  my grand father taught me to golf when i was 10, so ive been playing for almost 20 years, and the one thing ive learned is that the more relaxed you are on the course the better off you will be.. Thats why im glad now, unlike when i was a boy, i can have my rum and coke while i play... :p

[inthehole]

.  And im avg off the tee at 290...

radio edit

[rkim291968]

Ultimately I just want to enjoy myself which is what it seems like everyone is ultimately saying ... in one way or another.

+1

This is what is/should be all about unless one's thinking about making a career out of golf.  Too often, people lose sight of that and get all bent out of shape (myself included at times).

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

You play the tips because they are the easier tees for you?  Are you saying that playing 6000 yards is more difficult than 7000?  I'm not sure I follow.

it just comes down to my play style, i am better with my mid irons than wedges.  So i want my second shot to be somewhere between 150-200 yards.  And im avg off the tee at 290...  So 6000yd courses become all drive and wedge, with the exception of the few longer holes of course.

You aren't exactly a bogey golfer - so my tee question might not apply to you as much as it would to most.  You've got a more legitimate argument for playing whatever tees.

Having said that, I have trouble believing that you score better from 7k than from 6k.  Or that anyone else does for that matter.  Being closer to the hole always helps. Iacas even had an official statement of some sort about it in another thread.   I'd have trouble believing that a 12 handicap hits more greens from 195 than from 95.  If I remember, the best golfer on tour only averaged 65% of his greens from 175 yards.

And even if you are that much more accurate with a 5i than a 9i, you could hit less club than driver to get to that coveted 150-200 yard range.  And when doing so, you would hit less errant shots, hit from the good grass/lies more often, choose better angles, hit more of those mid irons you like, etc.

If you just like playing from the tips more, that is great.  And is the reason I asked the question - a philosophical one about why we'd rather hit from tees that we score worse on.  But I'm having trouble with your explanation that you play from farther back because it causes you to score better.

[rkim291968]

No reason not to believe jbro06.  For some players, they can't hit accurately without full swing.   I have more accurate full swing PW shot than half swing SW.  So, I try to leave about 100 yards or so on my final approach shot.   I think jbro06 has similar situation but with 140-200 yard shot vs "wedge" distance shots.

BUT ... I claim he can score just as well on short yardage courses:

Someone like jbro06 (12 HI) can hit tee shots that will leave him 140 - 200 yards short of green instead of leaving a "wedge" distance. I.e, his tee shot does not have to be with driver.  It can be with more accurate shorter clubs .    That way, he can score better with shorter courses without hitting 290 yard drives which comes with higher risk of OB, putting in hazard, etc..

[Lihu]

No reason not to believe jbro06.  For some players, they can't hit accurately without full swing.   I have more accurate full swing PW shot than half swing SW.  So, I try to leave about 100 yards or so on my final approach shot.   I think jbro06 has similar situation but with 140-200 yard shot vs "wedge" distance shots.

BUT ... I claim he can score just as well on short yardage courses:

Someone like jbro06 (12 HI) can hit tee shots that will leave him 140 - 200 yards short of green instead of leaving a "wedge" distance.  I.e, his tee shot does not have to be with driver.  It can be with more accurate shorter clubs.    That way, he can score better with shorter courses without hitting 290 yard drives which comes with higher risk of OB, putting in hazard, etc..

I agree.

Some people are naturally gifted with speed and can take advantage of it, but then once in close their game gets harder.

Judging by some of the responses, some of you probably have really good short games and can't drive as far as jbro06.

Would be great to have both.

[Meltdwhiskey]

No reason not to believe jbro06.  For some players, they can't hit accurately without full swing.   I have more accurate full swing PW shot than half swing SW.  So, I try to leave about 100 yards or so on my final approach shot.   I think jbro06 has similar situation but with 140-200 yard shot vs "wedge" distance shots.

BUT ... I claim he can score just as well on short yardage courses:

Someone like jbro06 (12 HI) can hit tee shots that will leave him 140 - 200 yards short of green instead of leaving a "wedge" distance.  I.e, his tee shot does not have to be with driver.  It can be with more accurate shorter clubs.    That way, he can score better with shorter courses without hitting 290 yard drives which comes with higher risk of OB, putting in hazard, etc..

I understand what you are saying.  Some folks surely have trouble with different clubs.  Generally, the shorter the club the better - but it isn't 100%.  But I wonder if his assertion of 150-200 being better isn't just a flawed perception.  Wouldn't we expect more success from 100 than from 200?  Wouldn't we be more upset to miss from 100 than from 200?  Might that kind of disappointment have a more lasting impression on us than missing from 200?

Obviously I have no data on jbro's game to prove anything.  But picture basically anyone standing at 115 with a hundred balls and seeing how many they green.  The have them back up to 185 and try the same thing.  It would be super rare for them to actually green more from 185.

Even if you aren't good at the 115 club and you are really good at the 185 club, "good" can take on a relative context.  That is to say you are 'good' from 185 but those same results might not be as impressive from 115.  From 115 you got 45 greens - which doesn't sound great from 115.  From 185 you got 40 greens - which actually sounds pretty good. But you still got more from 115.

Of course I don't know what he would get from where.  But I would say that it would be very rare for someone to green more from the 185.

And to your point, even if he really does green more from 185, it doesn't fully make the case for scoring better from 7k than from 6k.

[Lihu]

I understand what you are saying.  Some folks surely have trouble with different clubs.  Generally, the shorter the club the better - but it isn't 100%.  But I wonder if his assertion of 150-200 being better isn't just a flawed perception.  Wouldn't we expect more success from 100 than from 200?  Wouldn't we be more upset to miss from 100 than from 200?  Might that kind of disappointment have a more lasting impression on us than missing from 200?

Obviously I have no data on jbro's game to prove anything.  But picture basically anyone standing at 115 with a hundred balls and seeing how many they green.  The have them back up to 185 and try the same thing.  It would be super rare for them to actually green more from 185.

Even if you aren't good at the 115 club and you are really good at the 185 club, "good" can take on a relative context.  That is to say you are 'good' from 185 but those same results might not be as impressive from 115.  From 115 you got 45 greens - which doesn't sound great from 115.  From 185 you got 40 greens - which actually sounds pretty good. But you still got more from 115.

Of course I don't know what he would get from where.  But I would say that it would be very rare for someone to green more from the 185.

And to your point, even if he really does green more from 185, it doesn't fully make the case for scoring better from 7k than from 6k.

To get 290 would require a swing speed of about 121, on a chart a 6i would deliver something like 199 yards carry. PW would carry something like 147 yards. Anything less would take more muscle control, which takes much more skill. So, inside 100 yards, a person with this swing speed has no really easy to hit club with a full swing.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I guess somewhere around bogey isn't completely arbitrary - but it seems a more logical theory might be to play the "men's" tees until we could scare par.  Or scare 80 frequently.  No matter how long you are, you'll still do better from closer.  No matter how easy the whites are, you might not break 90, and you VERY likely won't break 80.  Tee shots should improve, approach shots should be closer, resulting in more GIR's, closer pin proximity, more shot control, experience with the pressure of shooting a low score, etc.

I just got to thinking about this this weekend and would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Every course/person interaction is going to be unique to that pairing. If a courses stronger elements match up with a golfers stronger skills, then in theory might be easier playing from a bit further back. And the opposite holds true even thought the course overall appears easier if the heart of the courses strength is in an area where a particular golfer is relatively weaker it might be prudent to consider moving up.

My personal goal is to be comfortable, hit some quality golf shots, and enjoy the round. I do not care about score at all, however if I do all those things the score will just naturally take care of itself.  Being comfortable to me means having the "potential" (25% or better chance) of being 160 or less in on every par four with a clear view of the green, fairway or rough doesn't matter. However, someone else might only care about the ultimate score, or their differential, or just being out in the sun for a walk, or ...

This year I have played from 5200 because everyone else was playing there (shot 81) and from 6800 playing by myself as a single because I thought it was the best match for my game (shot 83). I just do not think there can be any formula that is going to work very well. Guidelines on the other hand probably are useful if the course has a recommendation for tees based on something valid. Fully understanding that guidelines are just that guides and will not apply to everyone or perfectly to anyone.

Ultimately I just want to enjoy myself which is what it seems like everyone is ultimately saying ... in one way or another.

I'm not sure exactly how to respond.  If your goal is to be comfortable - and you define comfortable as having more opportunities to be 160 or less in - why would you back up?  The closer you get the more comfortable you'll be. I'm confused a little on that one.

Also, I'm not convinced that adding yardage ever makes a course easier.  I'd guess that 0% of course ratings were higher from the whites than from the blues.  The whites are always rated easier because shorter is always easier.

I'm a little confused by your 5200/81 and 6800/83 for 'this year'.  Was that playing once or an average?  It can't be an average because if you average 81 from 5200 or 83 from 6800 - you would not be a 17 cap.  Also - you added 1600 yards and only shot 2 strokes worse?  I can see that once, but not many times.

But either way, you have ultimately chosen the 6800yd tees when you aren't good at the 5200yd tees yet.  And we all seem to do it.  My question is why don't we play the tees that the golf organizations, the courses, the tee it forward campaign, etc suggest?  And why do we seek more challenge when we still stink at the easy tees?