Bogey Golfers Only (Index 16-22) / Breaking 90 Topic

[CR McDivot]

...Come on CR McDivot.   It's time for you to give us a long par 3 assignment that a bogey golfer may have to consider laying up.

Buffalo Run #13

Par 3, slightly elevated green, 214 from the Blue (course plays 6499 from the Blue). Doesn't look tough but she's a cruel mistress.

Bluegrass fairways, sometimes a bit soft. First cut rough is thick and deep, native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely. Bunkers are deep and have walls greenside. The green is wide and shallow, with a fair false front on the right.

I can't give you a nice story about how I beat her, cause the best I have done is scrape by with a bogey. I'll keep working on the fairways, long irons, and wedges. One day...

[teamroper60]

Buffalo Run #13

Par 3, slightly elevated green, 214 from the Blue (course plays 6499 from the Blue). Doesn't look tough but she's a cruel mistress.

Bluegrass fairways, sometimes a bit soft. First cut rough is thick and deep, native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely. Bunkers are deep and have walls greenside. The green is wide and shallow, with a fair false front on the right.

I can't give you a nice story about how I beat her, cause the best I have done is scrape by with a bogey. I'll keep working on the fairways, long irons, and wedges. One day...

This one distance wise is similar to a hole on a course I play fairly regularly..   For me, (and under basically ideal conditions) this shot would be a 4-iron off the tee, aimed toward the right edge of the green.   If my shot tracks normally, it draws back just a little and lands on the front edge/fringe, right-center, rolling onto the green.

The nice thing about my choice there is, typically when I mis-hit my 4-iron off the tee, it's a low screamer that runs straight and about 150, which would leave me short and clear of the trouble, so I shouldn't be any worse off than if I had intentionally laid up.

[rkim291968]

I have a question for you guys… Was there a smooth transition from when you started playing to where you are now? Or was there a point where you figured out a single key and your game suddenly improved?

Gradual improvement for 3.5 years.  Sometimes, it was one step backward and two steps forward.   Then, something clicked  and I went from 16 to 12 in 2 months.  It was hard to say what caused sudden drop.  I remember hitting longer drives (but FH percentage went down), more accurate 2nd shot (more GIRs), and best PR in putting (30.5 per round).  Then my life caught up with me (stress, burn out at work) which led to lower neck, upper back problems.  With some chiropractic sessions, my neck & back have gotten better.   I am trying to make my way back to 12 HI in my 5th year in golf.   I just need to remember what I did right before.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

...Come on CR McDivot.   It's time for you to give us a long par 3 assignment that a bogey golfer may have to consider laying up.

Buffalo Run #13

Par 3, slightly elevated green, 214 from the Blue (course plays 6499 from the Blue). Doesn't look tough but she's a cruel mistress.

Bluegrass fairways, sometimes a bit soft. First cut rough is thick and deep, native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely. Bunkers are deep and have walls greenside. The green is wide and shallow, with a fair false front on the right.

I will play it two ways depending on how was doing until this hole.

1) If my ball striking is on, I am hitting straight to the middle of the green and hope my ball sticks.  I will use higher tee to get some height on the ball.  With this strategy, I will average bogey on this hole.  One of my past home course has very similar hole to this one and my average score there is 3.9 strokes.

2) If my ball striking is off, I will lay up to the fattest part of the fairway.   That will give me a wedge shot and a putt or two.  With this strategy, my average score will be around 3.7 as I can get up and down from that distance about 30% of the time.    Given my male ego, although this is a smarter play, I will likely do 1) above more often.

[JonMA1]

I will play it two ways depending on how was doing until this hole.

1) If my ball striking is on, I am hitting straight to the middle of the green and hope my ball sticks.  I will use higher tee to get some height on the ball.  With this strategy, I will average bogey on this hole.  One of my past home course has very similar hole to this one and my average score there is 3.9 strokes.

2) If my ball striking is off, I will lay up to the fattest part of the fairway.   That will give me a wedge shot and a putt or two.  With this strategy, my average score will be around 3.7 as I can get up and down from that distance about 30% of the time.    Given my male ego, although this is a smarter play, I will likely do 1) above more often.

This is an interesting point - that you play the same hole differently depending upon how well you're hitting certain clubs that day. I wasn't sure if that was common for other folks. There are times when I change my strategy based on how I'm playing and other times I take the attitude that I can't let a few bad shots cause me to back down from a shot "I should be able to make". I think we all know which option is the smarter of the two.

But seriously, at this point in my game, 90% of the golf I play is for the intention of getting better at shot making (if that's the right term). That's not to say I don't work on strategy because that's part of getting better as well. If I am getting into the later rounds with a chance for a decent score, I will play more cautiously.

[MS256]

This is an interesting point - that you play the same hole differently depending upon how well you're hitting certain clubs that day. I wasn't sure if that was common for other folks. There are times when I change my strategy based on how I'm playing and other times I take the attitude that I can't let a few bad shots cause me to back down from a shot "I should be able to make". I think we all know which option is the smarter of the two.

But seriously, at this point in my game, 90% of the golf I play is for the intention of getting better at shot making (if that's the right term). That's not to say I don't work on strategy because that's part of getting better as well. If I am getting into the later rounds with a chance for a decent score, I will play more cautiously.

I'm not a "high handicap" (in fact I don't have a handicap at all) but I play like one often enough to not be "sandbagging the thread".

I change my strategy based on how I am hitting the ball pretty much all the time. The entire key to any good scores for me is knowing what's on at any given time and leaning on it as much as I can.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I will play it two ways depending on how was doing until this hole.

1) If my ball striking is on, I am hitting straight to the middle of the green and hope my ball sticks.  I will use higher tee to get some height on the ball.  With this strategy, I will average bogey on this hole.  One of my past home course has very similar hole to this one and my average score there is 3.9 strokes.

2) If my ball striking is off, I will lay up to the fattest part of the fairway.   That will give me a wedge shot and a putt or two.  With this strategy, my average score will be around 3.7 as I can get up and down from that distance about 30% of the time.    Given my male ego, although this is a smarter play, I will likely do 1) above more often.

I would answer very similarly to #2 for this hole.  Without all of the dangers, different story, but here I'd be hitting a club that can't make that front middle bunker.  Then, much like you, I get up and down about 30% of the time.  Probably a little less from where I'd be.

#1 sounds great, but I see a few problems with it.  For one thing, even by your own numbers you are going to score better by #2, but more often play #1.  Your strategy is actually to score worse?

Also, I'm not sure a bogey golfer averages bogey on this hole with a GIR strategy.  I'm not actually sure a bogey golfer averages bogey on this hole with any strategy.  CR is a 20 and has never made par.  But I bet he has doubled.  Here are some problems with a GIR strategy: first cut thick and deep - native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely - bunkers deep w high walls - false front.  This is a pro tour par 3.  A bogey golfer is not going to green this very often.  And if you don't green it or hit it in that one little area front right, you are likely in one of the many stroke increasers CR laid out.  Now we could be at double or worse.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

This one distance wise is similar to a hole on a course I play fairly regularly..   For me, (and under basically ideal conditions) this shot would be a 4-iron off the tee, aimed toward the right edge of the green.   If my shot tracks normally, it draws back just a little and lands on the front edge/fringe, right-center, rolling onto the green.

The nice thing about my choice there is, typically when I mis-hit my 4-iron off the tee, it's a low screamer that runs straight and about 150, which would leave me short and clear of the trouble, so I shouldn't be any worse off than if I had intentionally laid up.

I'm starting to feel I am a much worse golfer or maybe ball striker than many other bogey golfers.  "Normally" you hit a 4i baby draw over 200 yards to a small space guarded by trouble on all sides?  Are you sure you are a bogey golfer?  That sounds like a fantastic game of golf.

But more importantly - it isn't going to roll on as you hope.  It is a false front.  Even if you pull off that fantastic weapon of a shot you have, you still aren't going to be on the green.  You'll be hoping for an up and down - same as if you'd laid up.  Also - an over cooked draw or the straight low screamer mishit could land you in one of the treacherous bunkers.  Maybe talking double or worse now.  And if you slice it? Looks ugly. IMO, you took on additional risks for very little reward.

For me - no damn way I'm ending up in that bunker.  No way.  I'll play for bogey and try to make it up somewhere else.  Once again - why a bogey golfer would adopt a par strategy on an evil 200+yd par 3 doesn't make sense to me.  We only par so many 160yd par 3's with no trouble.  The better strategy is to protect bogey and hope to get a surprise par with a good chip or putt.

[MissouriHack]

Buffalo Run #13 Par 3, slightly elevated green, 214 from the Blue (course plays 6499 from the Blue). Doesn't look tough but she's a cruel mistress. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/86126/] [/URL] Bluegrass fairways, sometimes a bit soft. First cut rough is thick and deep, native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely. Bunkers are deep and have walls greenside. The green is wide and shallow, with a fair false front on the right. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/86127/] [/URL] I can't give you a nice story about how I beat her, cause the best I have done is scrape by with a bogey. I'll keep working on the fairways, long irons, and wedges. One day...

How I would most likely play this hole: 1. Pull up too the hole cursing the corse designer for protecting par in such a way. 2. Try and talk myself into playing this like a par 4. 3. Ignore myself completely. 4. Pull my three hybrid. Convince myself that I will completely crush it over the hole. 5. Pull my 4H 6. aim, and swing way too hard. 7. block it right and scream and yell at the ball to turn left. It coldly ignores me. 8. Ball hits the cart path and takes and epic bounce. 9. look at my playing partner as he is snickering under his breath at me and trying not to make eye contact. 10. I ask him how his mother is. 11. try and find my ball. Gone forever. 12. Play it as a lateral hazard so I don't drive the people behind us insane. 13. card a triple. 14. par the next two holes still fuming about this one. 15. Dream about breaking 90 on a regular basis.

[rkim291968]

I would answer very similarly to #2 for this hole.  Without all of the dangers, different story, but here I'd be hitting a club that can't make that front middle bunker.  Then, much like you, I get up and down about 30% of the time.  Probably a little less from where I'd be.

#1 sounds great, but I see a few problems with it.  For one thing, even by your own numbers you are going to score better by #2, but more often play #1.  Your strategy is actually to score worse?

For sure, I will go with #2 if the final score would mean something (I am in a tournament, e.g).  Otherwise, if I am feeling good with my ball striking and my bunker play is also "on," I will go with #1.  It's more fun to "go" for it sometimes.

[Lihu]

The go for it means a narrow corridor on the right of the front greenside bunker. I would go conservative, with a 5i in that direction. Then try for an up and down from 25 yards or so. The hope is the lip on the bunker will stop any roll if my shot fades a little.

[JCRuzanski]

16º and try to get it close, then scramble from there, likely a 4 or 5.

[CR McDivot]

Good responses from all. Here is a little more info on Buffalo Run. The Blue tees that have been chosen for this challenge are the middle tees. If you think the Blues are tough take a look at this...

HOLE	13	Total 18 Hole Yardage
BLACK	260	7411
GOLD	228	7016
BLUE	214	6499
WHITE	195	6113
RED	157	5227
HDCP	10
PAR	3	72

Tee Name	USGA Course Rating (18)	Slope Rating (18)	Front (9)	Back (9)	Bogey Rating (18)	Gender
Black	74.7	130	37.6 / 133	37.1 / 127	98.9	M
Gold	72.9	128	36.6 / 131	36.3 / 124	96.6	M
Blue	70.5	125	35.3 / 124	35.2 / 126	93.7	M
White	68.9	116	34.3 / 119	34.6 / 113	90.5	M
White	74.1	133	36.8 / 136	37.3 / 129	105.3	F
Red	69	123	34.3 / 126	34.7 / 120	97.9	F

Buffalo Run Top Events and Golf Tournaments

Colorado Open Qualifiers
Colorado Golf Association Men's State Amateur Championships
Colorado PGA Section Pro-Pro-Pro Events
Colorado PGA Section Championship
Colorado Women's Stroke Play Championship
Gatorade World Junior Golf Cup Events
USGA US Open Qualifiers
Denver Open Championships
Colorado PGA Assistants Championships
Colorado Women's Golf Association Stroke Play Championships
Colorado Junior Golf Association Stroke Play Events
Colorado Golf Association's PubLinks Stroke Play Championship
National Professional Golf Tour Regional Major Championship

Nonetheless, the course actually plays very reasonably for the bogey golfer from the Blue tees (as low as 89 and no higher than 96 for my usual foursome), and a bit easier from the White tees.

#13 often gives me more grief than the other 17 holes on this course (though there are many more tough ones). But I always try for the GIR with either my 5W or 3I, aiming slightly right for the draw. Usually short or on the beach, but I'll keep trying.

BTW- If you overshoot this green you will be in deep rough either behind the back berm or with a severe downhill lie on it's face.

Have fun!

http://www.buffalorungolfcourse.com

[teamroper60]

But more importantly - it isn't going to roll on as you hope.  It is a false front.  Even if you pull off that fantastic weapon of a shot you have, you still aren't going to be on the green.  You'll be hoping for an up and down - same as if you'd laid up.  Also - an over cooked draw or the straight low screamer mishit could land you in one of the treacherous bunkers.  Maybe talking double or worse now.  And if you slice it? Looks ugly. IMO, you took on additional risks for very little reward.

First of all, I have no idea why you or anyone else is a bogey golfer but I pretty well know why I am and it isn't because of my irons.

I am a bogey golfer primarily for two reasons:

1)  I struggle with my driver and  3-wood.

2)  I might well be the worst putter on this website (as an example, I recently shot an 89 with 42 putts).

[rkim291968]

2)  I might well be the worst putter on this website (as an example, I recently shot an 89 with 42 putts).

See post #56 on this thread.  Putting is easy to practice at home, at range and improve.

Adding to post #56, a good game around green can also reduce total number of putts.   That's also easy to practice home.   I bought 150 yellow plastic golf balls, and a small indoor mat (2' x 1').  I can practice chip shots without breaking any furniture in my living room.

[teamroper60]

See post #56 on this thread.  Putting is easy to practice at home, at range and improve.

Adding to post #56, a good game around green can also reduce total number of putts.   That's also easy to practice home.   I bought 150 yellow plastic golf balls, and a small indoor mat (2' x 1').  I can practice chip shots without breaking any furniture in my living room.

I practice at home a lot and I'm a damn good putter there!   The same can be said about my chipping at home too...   But out on the course, I struggle...   I know it is mostly mental (confidence) I just haven't gotten past it yet..

[GreenIn2]

I would answer very similarly to #2 for this hole.  Without all of the dangers, different story, but here I'd be hitting a club that can't make that front middle bunker.  Then, much like you, I get up and down about 30% of the time.  Probably a little less from where I'd be. #1 sounds great, but I see a few problems with it.  For one thing, even by your own numbers you are going to score better by #2, but more often play #1.  Your strategy is actually to score worse? Also, I'm not sure a bogey golfer averages bogey on this hole with a GIR strategy.  I'm not actually sure a bogey golfer averages bogey on this hole with any strategy.  CR is a 20 and has never made par.  But I bet he has doubled.  Here are some problems with a GIR strategy: first cut thick and deep - native areas thin but tall, and a good lie is not likely - bunkers deep w high walls - false front.  This is a pro tour par 3.  A bogey golfer is not going to green this very often.  And if you don't green it or hit it in that one little area front right, you are likely in one of the many stroke increasers CR laid out.  Now we could be at double or worse. I'm starting to feel I am a much worse golfer or maybe ball striker than many other bogey golfers.  "Normally" you hit a 4i baby draw over 200 yards to a small space guarded by trouble on all sides?  Are you sure you are a bogey golfer?  That sounds like a fantastic game of golf. But more importantly - it isn't going to roll on as you hope.  It is a false front.  Even if you pull off that fantastic weapon of a shot you have, you still aren't going to be on the green.  You'll be hoping for an up and down - same as if you'd laid up.  Also - an over cooked draw or the straight low screamer mishit could land you in one of the treacherous bunkers.  Maybe talking double or worse now.  And if you slice it? Looks ugly. IMO, you took on additional risks for very little reward. For me - no damn way I'm ending up in that bunker.  No way.  I'll play for bogey and try to make it up somewhere else.  Once again - why a bogey golfer would adopt a par strategy on an evil 200+yd par 3 doesn't make sense to me.  We only par so many 160yd par 3's with no trouble.  The better strategy is to protect bogey and hope to get a surprise par with a good chip or putt.

I can tell you one reason why adopting a par strategy is always a good idea to me.. it's to go For gold. iit's the excitement of pulling of a shot that only the good can pull off. if my buddies are paring every hole because they have the confidence and talent to hit a long iron over the lake rather then play they conservative approach then so do I. the worse case scenario is the Nike mojo being water bound and I have to drop a new one. best case scenario is my ball goes right were I want it to and I throw my club in the air and scream for joy asking my friends if they want dad to teach them how to hit like that. my opinion as a 100+ bogey golfer is to not worried about the scorecard cause it's never good. my best games are played when they lie and tell me that we are not keeping score. that's when my game drops to an unbelievable low.... but then they tell me before the back nine and the competitor takes over and I start thinking to much about what needs to be done and not what I want to do.... moral of my story, I'd rather go hit the ball the way I'd like to and not the way I should "others opinions not mine" as to what should be hit. trial and error my friend.

[rkim291968]

I practice at home a lot and I'm a damn good putter there!   The same can be said about my chipping at home too...   But out on the course, I struggle...   I know it is mostly mental (confidence) I just haven't gotten past it yet..

Seems like something that will work all of sudden once you get over the mental issue.  This reminds me ...

My brother hit his driver well at range but can't reproduce its success in field.   One day, he brought a rubber tee to use it in field.  The rubber tee reminded of his success at range.  He told me it worked somewhat.

[Meltdwhiskey]

First of all, I have no idea why you or anyone else is a bogey golfer but I pretty well know why I am and it isn't because of my irons.

I am a bogey golfer primarily for two reasons:

1)  I struggle with my driver and  3-wood.

2)  I might well be the worst putter on this website (as an example, I recently shot an 89 with 42 putts).

Dude, I'm not trying to insult your iron game.  I hope I didn't sound harsh.  I just think we tend to get confused between what we can do and what we probably will do with one chance to do it.  The #1 golfer on tour in 2013 (Stenson) hit 65% of his greens from 175 - 200.  This shot is 215.  I'm guessing Stenson is closer to 50% from this distance.  And I bet you are significantly less than Stenson.  I'm saying that you (or I or any other bogey golfer) aren't going to green it enough times out of 100  to justify taking on any trouble.  It's just my opinion how to end up with the best score on this hole if we played it those 100 times.

Also, from a game management perspective, if you are truly that good at that shot and you have problems with your driver and 3-wood, why use them?  Hitting two 215 yard 4i's with that kind of accuracy will get you on all greens of 430 yards and less.  Which is basically all of them.  If driver gets you into trouble, why not hit 4i?