Slope & Rating - I Get Lower Differentials from Shorter Tees

[Cartboy]

I have a feeling I won't be able to say properly what I want to say, but . . .

Should Slope and Rating affect a golfer's GHIN Index?

My amateur-ish answer is NO, a GHIN Index should remain the same, and that Slope and Rating of different tee settings will determine how many strokes you get. 

I understand that playing a shorter tee, one with a lower Slope and Rating than a longer tee, at the same course, logically will result in fewer strokes per round.  But, if the course is properly sloped and rated, the GHIN Index should be the same.  The adjustments of Slope and Rating to ESC scores from any tee setting should result in the same GHIN Index.

In reality, because my short game is not as bad as my long game is short, when I play a shorter tee over a period of time, my GHIN Index comes down.  Or, if I play different tees, almost all of the scores used to determine my GHIN Index come from shorter tee settings, lower Slope and Rating. 

Right now in my 20 rounds I have 3 different Slopes.  Only 1 of the four rounds at the highest Slope has been used, 6 of eleven at the middle Slope have been used (and only because most of my rounds were played at that Slope), and 3 out of five of the lowest Slope have been used.  If I had played more of the 20 rounds at the lowest Slope and Rated tee, more scores would have been used from it.

When I play shorter tees, my ESC scores are lower relatively than Slope and Rating account for.

The net result is that if I play just higher Slope and Rating tees, I will have a higher GHIN Index, and get more strokes on all tee settings.  So, I would be able to create an unfair advantage for an important round by playing longer tee settings (higher Slope and Rating) to establish my GHIN Index.

That should not be the case.

Anyone else have a lower GHIN Index when they play lower Slopes?

- - - - - -

Unrelated, I have noticed that when I play with other Senior golfers, and I announce I am going to play a shorter tee, I find others are normally in total agreement.  It's much more fun to be in proper position for your second (or third) shot.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hardspoon]

The system is designed so that for the AVERAGE player of a certain skill level (scratch, bogey, etc), the system evens out.

For different types of players, and different types of courses, there are going to be cases where the slope and rating don't reflect the actual change in difficulty for that specific combination. For example, on a course that derives a lot of its difficult from incredibly long carries, a bogey golfer who hits it 300 yards but has a terrible short game may consistently score better than they "should".

However, that is probably rarer than you'd think. Something else to keep in mind is small sample size. Even if you play the same course 30 times a year from each set of tees, that's a very small sample of all the rounds played there, so it's likely that some players will see similar results as those you describe, just due to random chance.

[Pendragon]

Slope and rating definitely affect your index, but the course rating will affect it much more than the slope will. Both the rating and slope are used in the calculation that determines the handicap differential for every round you play. I'm not sure why you'd think that your index wouldn't be affected by rating and slope.

 

[Hardspoon]

1 minute ago, Pendragon said:

Slope and rating definitely affect your index, but the course rating will affect it much more than the slope will. Both the rating and slope are used in the calculation that determines the handicap differential for every round you play. I'm not sure why you'd think that your index wouldn't be affected by rating and slope.

I think he is saying that the affect is greater than it "should" be...so his differential for rounds on easier courses (or from easier tees) is consistently lower. 

[Hacker James]

arguably, this is another reason I choose to maintain my own spreadsheet. Granted, there are apps that will do a lot more, but mine gives me the ability to temporarily create "what if" scenarios where I can plug in different data, Course Rating, Slope, then once I see the results, I simply exit without saving and my original data remains intact. It is automated and configured so that I can simply record minimum data and a running index and course handicaps for several courses I play is calculated using formulae from GHIN using best 10 of most recent 20 rounds. I recently added additional columns to reflect par/birdies/bogie/doubles/trips and GIR and Fairway as a percentage, example might be 80% fairways hit, 40% pars e.t.c.  It only takes me a few minutes after a round using my desktop.

[Cartboy]

49 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

I think he is saying that the affect is greater than it "should" be...so his differential for rounds on easier courses (or from easier tees) is consistently lower. 

In my first sentence I said that I would probably not be able to say what I want to say properly, but that is close to what I am saying.  I play disproportionately better from shorter/easier Slope/Rating.

Going back 20 years that has been the case.  As an example, I used to play with the Club Champion at an "Executive" course in Estero, FL, and I would occasionally beat him.  I recall being 7 over par the last time I did.  On a "normal" course/tee setting, I am 20 over, and have never been anywhere competitive with Club Champions.

I know why, but that would only confuse the point.

I also know what I am trying to say is confusing, but, like I said, I understand why scores would be lower on an easier course, and I understand why I would get more strokes on higher-Slope/Rated tees, but don't understand why that should affect the GHIN Index.  The Slope/Rating system should account for difficulty, and adjust accordingly, so the Index would be the same.  If it did not, a golfer could post honest scores from more difficult tees in order to increase their handicap.

I just wondered if anyone else is the same. 

Have you ever looked at how the Index is determined?

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

Should Slope and Rating affect a golfer's GHIN Index?

Obviously they "should" because that's what you use to calculate the handicap index. Just three things: the score, the rating, and the slope.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

My amateur-ish answer is NO, a GHIN Index should remain the same, and that Slope and Rating of different tee settings will determine how many strokes you get.

Slope does. Rating does if you are playing different tees than someone else. And then when you're done, it's pulled into your overall handicap.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

I understand that playing a shorter tee, one with a lower Slope and Rating than a longer tee, at the same course, logically will result in fewer strokes per round.  But, if the course is properly sloped and rated, the GHIN Index should be the same.

Yes, but it doesn't always work out that way. Some players play better from shorter tees. Others play better (relative to the rating and slope) from longer tees.

Beyond that, the rating/slope system is a generalized system that has to apply to everyone who plays golf. There are bound to be exceptions.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

Right now in my 20 rounds I have 3 different Slopes.  Only 1 of the four rounds at the highest Slope has been used, 6 of eleven at the middle Slope have been used (and only because most of my rounds were played at that Slope), and 3 out of five of the lowest Slope have been used.  If I had played more of the 20 rounds at the lowest Slope and Rated tee, more scores would have been used from it.

You're one of the exceptions. Bound to happen: you can't generalize everyone's golf game down to two numbers and always be accurate.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

The net result is that if I play just higher Slope and Rating tees, I will have a higher GHIN Index, and get more strokes on all tee settings.  So, I would be able to create an unfair advantage for an important round by playing longer tee settings (higher Slope and Rating) to establish my GHIN Index.

It's not unfair at all if you play those longer tees in the match.

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

Anyone else have a lower GHIN Index when they play lower Slopes?

Many better players actually find it more difficult to score when they play the forward tees. If the black tees are 73.2/138 and the shoot 74, they find it tough to shoot 69 or 70 from the yellow tees at 68.3/126.

 

[Cartboy]

I've never been asked what tee(s) I played to establish my handicap (Index), the assumption being, I believe, that the Index is fair regardless of what tee(s) I played.  Actually, no one asks what my index is, they just ask what my handicap is for the tee we're playing.

I know I can increase my handicap (Index), and get more strokes at every tee setting, by playing a higher Slope/Rating.

Since everyone assumes that the Index is fair, that should not be the case.

But that's OK with me.

It could explain why those I play with who know me always want to play a longer tee.

Everyone have a happy 2017.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Cartboy

[natureboy]

I guess the effect you observe really derives from the ESC. On a longer course you run up against the limit more realistically vs. a scratch skill level.

ESC seems to have been instituted as a guard against sandbaggers. Not sure if it actually holds cheaters back, but does likely help magnify the mismatch between HCP and average score for higher handicaps for whom blow up holes are part of their regular game. It's also a step function that changes every 10 HCP points so it's less precise than some ratio to the player's actual HCP.

I hadn't thought about how it might aid sandbagging if you play much longer tees than your skill level would allow. If you don't have above average power for your HCP level you're more likely to have more holes that hit the ESC limit vs. the easier course/tees. It would seem to if you played such courses/tees for 20 rounds and then moved up for a competition you'd likely have a partially overstated HCP relative to your actual skill from 'appropriate' tees. Typically, though those who have played a while and have 'settled' HCPs will tend to be longer players. 'Improving' players with lots of power will tend to keep scoring better and their HCPs will go down. They might have to play significantly longer courses to get much of an edge.

Don't know if this effect would do much more than offset the .96 multiplier. Have you looked at those numbers?

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

I know I can increase my handicap (Index), and get more strokes at every tee setting, by playing a higher Slope/Rating.

Since everyone assumes that the Index is fair, that should not be the case.

Please read what people have written before repeating yourself.

You're an exception. There are those that go the other way too.

Slope/rating is a good system, but it clearly can't account for every individual case. If you're a 6 with a horrible bunker game and you play on a course with a ton of bunkers all the time, maybe you're actually a 4 on most courses.

That's all there is to it.

3 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I guess the effect you observe really derives from the ESC. On a longer course you run up against the limit more realistically vs. a scratch skill level.

I really doubt that's at play here.

[Patch]

4 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

I've never been asked what tee(s) I played to establish my handicap (Index), the assumption being, I believe, that the Index is fair regardless of what tee(s) I played.  Actually, no one asks what my index is, they just ask what my handicap is for the tee we're playing.

I know I can increase my handicap (Index), and get more strokes at every tee setting, by playing a higher Slope/Rating.

Since everyone assumes that the Index is fair, that should not be the case.

But that's OK with me.

It could explain why those I play with who know me always want to play a longer tee.

Everyone have a happy 2017.

I have never been ask what my "index", or "GHIN" is either. It's always "what's your handicap?" I just reply "I am a 10, at my home course, which is 6600 yards". If the person I am golfing with wants to factor in other info, due to different tees, or a different course rating, I have no problem with that either.

[Hardspoon]

16 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I guess the effect you observe really derives from the ESC

Overall, the only way ESC could realistically skew results would be a (hypothetical) player who has extreme variance in their hole-by-hole scores. This would take something ridiculous, like someone who regularly shoots a 90 by shooting sixteen pars and two 10's.

The results the OP is describing are a result of specific game weaknesses and strengths (length, accuracy, putting) working with specific elements of course difficulty. That's all. 

[David in FL]

2 hours ago, Cartboy said:

I have a feeling I won't be able to say properly what I want to say, but . . .

Should Slope and Rating affect a golfer's GHIN Index?

My amateur-ish answer is NO, a GHIN Index should remain the same, and that Slope and Rating of different tee settings will determine how many strokes you get. 

I understand that playing a shorter tee, one with a lower Slope and Rating than a longer tee, at the same course, logically will result in fewer strokes per round.  But, if the course is properly sloped and rated, the GHIN Index should be the same.  The adjustments of Slope and Rating to ESC scores from any tee setting should result in the same GHIN Index.

In reality, because my short game is not as bad as my long game is short, when I play a shorter tee over a period of time, my GHIN Index comes down.  Or, if I play different tees, almost all of the scores used to determine my GHIN Index come from shorter tee settings, lower Slope and Rating. 

Right now in my 20 rounds I have 3 different Slopes.  Only 1 of the four rounds at the highest Slope has been used, 6 of eleven at the middle Slope have been used (and only because most of my rounds were played at that Slope), and 3 out of five of the lowest Slope have been used.  If I had played more of the 20 rounds at the lowest Slope and Rated tee, more scores would have been used from it.

When I play shorter tees, my ESC scores are lower relatively than Slope and Rating account for.

The net result is that if I play just higher Slope and Rating tees, I will have a higher GHIN Index, and get more strokes on all tee settings.  So, I would be able to create an unfair advantage for an important round by playing longer tee settings (higher Slope and Rating) to establish my GHIN Index.

That should not be the case.

Anyone else have a lower GHIN Index when they play lower Slopes?

- - - - - -

Unrelated, I have noticed that when I play with other Senior golfers, and I announce I am going to play a shorter tee, I find others are normally in total agreement.  It's much more fun to be in proper position for your second (or third) shot.

 

 

 

 

 

With most courses, and within reason, my index tends to increase as I move up and decrease as I move back on the same course.

Regardless though, do you really think that the relative difficulty of one course versus another shouldn't be a factor in calculation a handicap index?  That 2 golfers who shoot the same score, one on a very difficult course, and one on a very easy course, should be considered equals when playing together?

[Cartboy]

14 minutes ago, Patch said:

I have never been ask what my "index", or "GHIN" is either. It's always "what's your handicap?" I just reply "I am a 10, at my home course, which is 6600 yards". If the person I am golfing with wants to factor in other info, due to different tees, or a different course rating, I have no problem with that either.

I typically get asked what my handicap is at my home course, and I answer with exactly what it is for the tee we're playing.  That's something that's pretty easy to know when you play frequently and get updates twice a month.

Then, after that, the Head Bully telling everyone what game we're playing makes sure his rules don't allow anyone to use all their handicap.

Oh, BTW, I do read what everyone says, but assume some don't understand what I'm saying.  I do understand what they are saying, but since I don't think they understand what I am saying, I don't always accept what they are saying.

Anyway, anyone have a lower GHIN Index when they play easier tees?

 

 

 

[natureboy]

25 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Overall, the only way ESC could realistically skew results would be a (hypothetical) player who has extreme variance in their hole-by-hole scores. This would take something ridiculous, like someone who regularly shoots a 90 by shooting sixteen pars and two 10's.

You've studied the permutations? I think the very definition of very high handicappers is variance in scores. Especially ones starting out who are physically able to hit a decent distance, but are very wild and hit lots of fats/thins otherwise known as 'awful shots'. At low skill and experience level, those tend to come in bunches.

Someone who plinks the ball 50 yards at a time will be a very high HCP, but score pretty consistently. I think rather than the linear increase reflected in ESC that average scores and max hole scores tend to rise more exponentially toward the top handicap end of the range.

25 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

There may be some small skewing for golfers on the ESC "border" (where the max allowable score changes from 9 to 8), but again, that's going to be so rare as to be negligible.

I'd expect that too, but smaller than the overall difference between single digit and 30 HCP relative to the ESC at their level. Also more than one knowledgeable commentator has stated that the front tees on most courses aren't really forward enough for women or beginning players who can't hit it far.

Probably it's a good idea to avoid a full golf course until you can hit the ball at least 75 yards consistently anyway.

The system is quite good. But the effect the OP observes might be there for more players than just him.

Edited January 8, 2017 by natureboy

[Cartboy]

11 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Regardless though, do you really think that the relative difficulty of one course versus another shouldn't be a factor in calculation a handicap index?  That 2 golfers who shoot the same score, one on a very difficult course, and one on a very easy course, should be considered equals when playing together?

Obviously, I must have said what I meant to say wrong, cuz I did not mean to say that.

What I meant to say is that when a (one) golfer plays tee settings of different difficulty, the GHIN Index system should be able to adjust so that it does not affect the GHIN Index.  The Index is a measure of a golfer's ability, which does not change from course to course.

Maybe it's a difficult concept to grasp, but the courses or tee settings change, not the ability of the golfer, such that a (one) golfer can play some tee settings/courses better than others.

My skill as a golfer does not change, but my ability to shoot a lower score does, because of the course/tee setting.

Let me try this way . . . I certainly can have a different handicap at different courses or tee settings, but my GHIN Index should not be different.

[Hardspoon]

7 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

Let me try this way . . . I certainly can have a different handicap at different courses or tee settings, but my GHIN Index should not be different.

Part of the problem is terminology. The number you are referring to is the "differential" - the calculated "score" for a round based on your score, its rating, and its slope.

The index is an adjusted average of selected differentials - it doesn't exist as a number for a single round.

15 minutes ago, natureboy said:

You've studied the permutations?

I don't have to. It's a fairly simple intuitive system, with lots of analogues (averages that are affected by discarded outliers).

19 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I think the very definition of very high handicappers is variance in scores.

No, the definition has nothing to do with variance.

[Cartboy]

Yes I believe the problem is in terminology.

By definition a Handicap Index is:

. . . a number that indicates a player’s skill

. . . the USGA's service mark used to indicate a measurement of a player's potential ability on a course of standard playing difficulty, a Slope Rating of 113. 

A player's skill or potential ability does not change, or change much, because of where a golfer plays, because the Slope/Rating system is used to reconcile a set of scores from a set of courses/tee settings, back to the golfer's skill level, their Handicap Index.

Handicap (not the golfer's skill level), on the other hand, varies from course to course and tee setting to tee setting:

To get your Course Handicap, take the Handicap Index and multiply it by the slope rating of the tees played. Once you have that number, divide it by Standard Slope Rating (113) to get your answer (rounded to the nearest whole number, .4 rounds down and .5 rounds up).