Slope & Rating - I Get Lower Differentials from Shorter Tees

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Cartboy said:

Let me try another way as re-stating my OP:

When I play a number of rounds at tee settings that suit my game, my handicap index goes down.  Anyone else?

There's nothing to try again.

This statement is true of every golfer: When a golfer plays a course set up that favors his strengths, his index goes down.

For you, that's a shorter course. For others, it may be courses with difficult putting greens.

Because a course rating and slope is an amalgamation of all of the features of the golf course, if you can consistently play a course that lines up with your strengths really well, you'll "beat" the system to some extent and shoot lower differentials than you would on a similarly rated course that was not set up to your strengths.

[Denny Bang Bang]

To echo what others have already stated, it can go both ways.  For example, a course I play a dozen times a year is rated 70.8/124 Blue, 67.6/118 White, with an 800 yard difference between the two tees.  My best score from the Blues is a 78, and from the Whites is a 77.  A one stroke difference between the two tees is pretty typical for me at that course.  So my resulting index is lower when playing the Blue tees.

I'm sure I could come up with an example going the other way as well.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Denny Bang Bang

[Pendragon]

3 hours ago, Cartboy said:

"Anyone else have a lower GHIN Index when they play lower Slopes?"

So, back to where I started . . . does that happen to anyone else, that if you play lower Slope/Rating tees for a number of rounds, you Index goes down?

I'm starting to get the feeling that we're going in circles here, but let's try this one more time. There is no question that, if any of us went out and played our next 20 rounds from the forward tees at our respective clubs, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go down. If, on the other hand, we played those next 20 rounds from the tips, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go up. 

It's certainly possible that our actual performances might not closely reflect those expectations in every instance...shit happens, right?...but it doesn't take too big of a leap of faith to buy into the idea that easier courses produce lower scores, and harder courses produce higher scores. It's simple math, right? 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Pendragon
Brain fart

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

I'm starting to get the feeling that we're going in circles here, but let's try this one more time. There is no question that, if any of us went out and played our next 20 rounds from the forward tees at our respective clubs, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go down. If, on the other hand, we played those next 20 rounds from the tips, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go up. 

I don't agree, and posted to this effect earlier about how often low handicappers in particular have a hard time scoring lower differentials from the shortera tees.

I see it all the time, too: a guy shoots 76 almost regardless of which tees he plays, so he gets lower differentials from the longer set.

[Pendragon]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don't agree, and posted to this effect earlier about how often low handicappers in particular have a hard time scoring lower differentials from the shortera tees.

I see it all the time, too: a guy shoots 76 almost regardless of which tees he plays, so he gets lower differentials from the longer set.

I see your point, but don't you think the results might be somewhat different if we're talking about an average golfer, e.g., someone who's index is in the 15 to 18 range...or even higher?

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

I see your point, but don't you think the results might be somewhat different if we're talking about an average golfer, e.g., someone who's index is in the 15 to 18 range...or even higher?

You said things like "significant likelihood" and "no question."

I don't agree with that language.

[Cartboy]

9 hours ago, Pendragon said:

 There is no question that, if any of us went out and played our next 20 rounds from the forward tees at our respective clubs, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go down. If, on the other hand, we played those next 20 rounds from the tips, there's a significant likelihood that our index will go up. 

It's certainly possible that our actual performances might not closely reflect those expectations in every instance...shit happens, right?...but it doesn't take too big of a leap of faith to buy into the idea that easier courses produce lower scores, and harder courses produce higher scores. It's simple math, right? 

Now y'all (some of y'all) are getting pretty close to what I'm saying.

Even though scores would likely be lower from easier tees, and higher from more difficult tees, the Index would be the same-ish.

If tees are Sloped accurately, scores posted from different tees should reconcile down to the same-ish Index.

- - - - - -

Anyone know why it is called "Slope?"  And why "Slope" was added to determine Handicaps?

Edited January 9, 2017 by Cartboy

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

The rest of my point is that Slopes and Ratings of the different tee settings should reconcile the Index back to the same place, m/l.

That will never happen. That would assume that every golfer would have the same change in differential due to changing tees. Yet, golfers do not have the same game. 

You could move me up on one course, bring in more hazards/bunkers, and my gameplay changes dramatically versus a much more open golf course.  Yet, I might play the two courses very similar from the tips. 

I'm not even sure it matters much anyways. 

 

[Cartboy]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I'm not even sure it matters much anyways. 

 

There is not much that matters anyways.

 

[Jeremie Boop]

10 hours ago, Cartboy said:

Let me try another way as re-stating my OP:

When I play a number of rounds at tee settings that suit my game, my handicap index goes down.  and vice versa. 

Anyone else?

Well, obviously that's the case. I typically do well on courses that have a high slope/rating due to the length only because I'm able to hit the ball fairly long for my handicap. However, if you put me on a shorter course that's tight I'll play much worse. The thing is, if I only play on the course that is easier for me, or if I only play the course that's difficult for me, my index isn't really an indicator of my true potential overall in my opinion. I choose to play courses of all different setups because I want my index to reflect a "traveling score".

[MacDutch]

When I play from the shortest tees, I get 2 strokes on my home course (actually a 36 holes course, so it varies a bit). That would be a score of 73 (par 71), which I have never done in my life. 75 was my best score ever from the forward tees. When I play this same course from the back tees, I get 9 strokes. That would be a score of 80, which I have done many times. 77 was my best score ever from the back tees.

So my index would go up, if I played from the forward tees (which I don't, I only play them for fun or to practice).

[Cartboy]

41 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

Anyone know why it is called "Slope?"  And why "Slope" was added to determine Handicaps?

Since I asked that, subsequent comments have addressed it, perhaps not knowing you were.  Here is the explanation:

Ever notice that the professionals on television always seem to shoot in the low 70s or high 60s no matter how easy or difficult the golf course is?

In the 1980s, The USGA noticed this too. Statistically, they could show that no matter how easy or difficult a course was, the very best of golfers will still shoot a score close to par.

But they also noticed that the scores of less-proficient golfers were more strongly affected by the difficulty of a golf course. And in general, the worse the golfer, the more that golfer's score was likely to be affected by the difficulty of the course itself.

And so, the handicap system was revised in the late 1980s to include a second figure to describe the difficulty of a golf course. This figure is known as The Slope.

The Slope is actually not a measure of a course's difficulty. That's the responsibility of The Rating figure.

The Slope is a measure of how much difference a course's difficulty is for the average bogey golfer compared to the scratch golfer.

What I have been saying throughout this thread is that because of my particular skills, I tend to "beat the Slope" at lower Slope tee settings and "Lose to the Slope" at higher Slope tee settings.

I have been trying to speak in generalities, which I believe are true, that if you take a large sampling of less-proficient golfers playing from a large sampling of Slope tee settings, generally speaking, their Indexes will remain approximately the same from all tees.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Cartboy said:

Now y'all (some of y'all) are getting pretty close to what I'm saying.

We've understood from the outset.

12 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

What I have been saying throughout this thread is that because of my particular skills, I tend to "beat the Slope" at lower Slope tee settings and "Lose to the Slope" at higher Slope tee settings.

Yes, and the reasons for this have been explained to you several times. It's not a "flaw" as you seem to think, just - again - the nature of trying to generalize something so variable.

12 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

I have been trying to speak in generalities, which I believe are true, that if you take a large sampling of less-proficient golfers playing from a large sampling of Slope tee settings, generally speaking, their Indexes will remain approximately the same from all tees.

That's how it should work.

Yours goes down. Some players will tend to have higher differentials from shorter tees. On the whole, it averages out and works out just fine.

[Cartboy]

Erik:

Are you still a PGA Apprentice?

I ask because I am the Player Services Supervisor at a noteworthy Golf Club.  I have worked with a variety of Head Professionals and GMs, from beginners to seasoned veterans.

Currently my "boss" is also a 30-some PGA Apprentice/Head Professional, and it is amazing how similar your manner seems to be to his.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Cartboy

[Hatchman]

I've been following this; kind of, and understand several things.  Playing up increases my scoring chances and playing back decreases my scoring chances.  I think it's related to the fundamental question.

Our neighborhood course of 7,000+ yards from the blacks, full bent tee to green, tall fescue roughs, and ugly native grasses outside the roughs with some water carries has an annual great forward tee tournament all can play.  It's never been won by one of the champion flight golfers who moved up.   Too many trouble areas to hit into, or tempting shots to try, that they are not as familiar with.  The mids usually win.  Guests who visit sometime say they hate this course.  Others playing the first time like it.

Just my take and experience.

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Hatchman

[iacas]

51 minutes ago, Cartboy said:

Erik: Are you still a PGA Apprentice?

Yeah.

I'm also one of Golf Digest's Best Young Teachers for 2016-17. I'm a rules official and worked a national championship for the USGA last year. I'm an author of a book that's sold about 15,000 copies, and a software developer, and Director of Instructor Development for 5 Simple Keys®.

I'm also captain of my local course rating committee for the West Penn Golf Association, and have been involved with the rating process for over a decade now.

The PGA thing means next to nothing in comparison. They aren't involved with this sort of thing.

[Cartboy]

34 minutes ago, Hatchman said:

I've been following this; kind of, and understand several things.  Playing up increases my scoring chances and playing back decreases my scoring chances.  I think it's related to the fundamental question.

Our neighborhood course of 7,000+ yards from the blacks, full bent tee to green, tall fescue roughs, and ugly native grasses outside the roughs with some water carries has an annual great forward tee tournament all can play.  It's never been won by one of the champion flight golfers who moved up.   Too many trouble areas to hit into, or tempting shots to try, that they are not as familiar with.  The mids usually win.  Guests who visit sometime say they hate this course.  Others playing the first time like it.

Just my take and experience.

 

Wow!

Same Home Course in different areas.

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah.

I'm also one of Golf Digest's Best Young Teachers for 2016-17. I'm a rules official and worked a national championship for the USGA last year. I'm an author of a book that's sold about 15,000 copies, and a software developer, and Director of Instructor Development for 5 Simple Keys®.

I'm also captain of my local course rating committee for the West Penn Golf Association, and have been involved with the rating process for over a decade now.

The PGA thing means next to nothing in comparison. They aren't involved with this sort of thing.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're my "Boss."

I love the merging feature.

[Pendragon]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

You said things like "significant likelihood" and "no question."

I don't agree with that language.

OK...but you didn't really answer my question. If I play from the tips for the next 20 rounds, is my index going to go down? Don't think so...