Driver Launch Angle/Loft

[freshmanUTA]

I'm planning on entering the qualifier for the REMAX Long Drive in August, and I've started to work on simple overspeed training and have gotten my clubhead speed in the mid 130's consistently when driving the ball in a simulator. I noticed that my launch angles were always between 19 and 23 degrees, with my longest drive having a launch angle of 12.5. My backspin was roughly 3,100 on the low end, and 5,100 on the high end. I'm planning on getting fit for a driver for when I attempt to qualify for the competition, but I'd like to know a little more about what the launch angle, spin and loft of a driver do to affect the distance of the shot. I thought that having a SS in the 130's with a 20* launch angle would send the ball flying, but my average was about 325, with my longest drive measuring 345, with a launch angle of 12.5, and backspin of 3,600. I read online that most long drivers dont use a loft higher than 10.5 and that their launch angle/backspin are usually near 20*/2,000rpm.

I'm still in winter mode, so I arranged to have my fitting in the middle of summer, and the qualifier is in early august. The place I'm going to go to get fit has drivers from multiple companies, including krank golf. From the phone conversation we had, the fitter said it sounds like I would be best suited for a loft around 5-8*, and a shaft thats around 50 grams. Is this true? I know the real way to tell is to go to the fitting, but it seems illogical to use a driver with that low of loft. What are the benefits/disadvantages of using a driver with this low of loft? Is he only recommending this low of loft because my average launch angle is so high? And regarding the shaft, isn't it more likely to break because of the light weight? I'm not trying to go through 4 drivers a year, I want something that I don't have to endlessly buy because it breaks. I'm also worried about the length of the driver because while SS is important, missing the center of the face when hitting the ball is likely to cause the face and shaft to take a large beating, if not break entirely.

[phillyk]

15 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

I'm planning on entering the qualifier for the REMAX Long Drive in August, and I've started to work on simple overspeed training and have gotten my clubhead speed in the mid 130's consistently when driving the ball in a simulator. I noticed that my launch angles were always between 19 and 23 degrees, with my longest drive having a launch angle of 12.5. My backspin was roughly 3,100 on the low end, and 5,100 on the high end. I'm planning on getting fit for a driver for when I attempt to qualify for the competition, but I'd like to know a little more about what the launch angle, spin and loft of a driver do to affect the distance of the shot. I thought that having a SS in the 130's with a 20* launch angle would send the ball flying, but my average was about 325, with my longest drive measuring 345, with a launch angle of 12.5, and backspin of 3,600. I read online that most long drivers dont use a loft higher than 10.5 and that their launch angle/backspin are usually near 20*/2,000rpm.

I'm still in winter mode, so I arranged to have my fitting in the middle of summer, and the qualifier is in early august. The place I'm going to go to get fit has drivers from multiple companies, including krank golf. From the phone conversation we had, the fitter said it sounds like I would be best suited for a loft around 5-8*, and a shaft thats around 50 grams. Is this true? I know the real way to tell is to go to the fitting, but it seems illogical to use a driver with that low of loft. What are the benefits/disadvantages of using a driver with this low of loft? Is he only recommending this low of loft because my average launch angle is so high? And regarding the shaft, isn't it more likely to break because of the light weight? I'm not trying to go through 4 drivers a year, I want something that I don't have to endlessly buy because it breaks. I'm also worried about the length of the driver because while SS is important, missing the center of the face when hitting the ball is likely to cause the face and shaft to take a large beating, if not break entirely.

My buddy is a massive hitter.  He had the Formula 6 krank head before he cracked it.  He used 5* of loft with a 3X stiff shaft at 71grams at 49.5in long.  His swing speed was consistently 147mph-ish in practice.  Launch high, spin low.  I don't know for sure about these numbers, but I think you want about 90-110ft at apex height with 1800 - 2200rpm.  Launch maybe like 12-14*.  Check out last years coverage of the Long Drive challenge. They show you all those numbers for the guys.  

Most companies come with warranties and if you hit a lot of drives in practice, they'll break.  But you can get it replaced.  Swing weight will become an issue with length, making it harder to get the face closed.  A lot of those guys have funky swings.  To get a ton of speed, you almost have to go a little unconventional.  All you need is one good hit in the zone.

[freshmanUTA]

 

13 minutes ago, phillyk said:

My buddy is a massive hitter.  He had the Formula 6 krank head before he cracked it.  He used 5* of loft with a 3X stiff shaft at 71grams at 49.5in long.  His swing speed was consistently 147mph-ish in practice.  Launch high, spin low.  I don't know for sure about these numbers, but I think you want about 90-110ft at apex height with 1800 - 2200rpm.  Launch maybe like 12-14*.  Check out last years coverage of the Long Drive challenge. They show you all those numbers for the guys.  

All you need is one good hit in the zone.

Yeah, last year I had an on-course record of 361, if I had to guess my swing speed in that was probably 140ish, and launch angle probably 15* or so. As of right now I have broken 2 driver shafts off of centered strikes in the local golf shop. The owner said that usually means that the shaft isn't stiff enough so it's whipping so hard that the shaft is bent in an awkward direction at impact. Not sure how true that is. Last year when I drove 361 the shaft was a stock stiff shaft in the taylormade jetspeed, just 1/4 inch longer than the standard length. The funny part about hitting the ball far is when I slow down my swing to gain accuracy, I slow down to about 110-115 and hit the ball about 275 average. When I do that it feels like I'm hitting a 3/4 wedge cause I'm so used to smashing it.

And yeah, you can average 300 but all it takes is that one drive you get a hold of haha.

[phillyk]

4 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

 

Yeah, last year I had an on-course record of 361, if I had to guess my swing speed in that was probably 140ish, and launch angle probably 15* or so. As of right now I have broken 2 driver shafts off of centered strikes in the local golf shop. The owner said that usually means that the shaft isn't stiff enough so it's whipping so hard that the shaft is bent in an awkward direction at impact. Not sure how true that is. Last year when I drove 361 the shaft was a stock stiff shaft in the taylormade jetspeed, just 1/4 inch longer than the standard length. The funny part about hitting the ball far is when I slow down my swing to gain accuracy, I slow down to about 110-115 and hit the ball about 275 average. When I do that it feels like I'm hitting a 3/4 wedge cause I'm so used to smashing it.

And yeah, you can average 300 but all it takes is that one drive you get a hold of haha.

You'll see an increase in club head speed just by getting a shaft 3in longer. But like I said, you'll lose a lot of accuracy (and I mean you'll start leaving the face open) with how much heavier it feels.  I would definitely look at going double or triple extra stiff for long drive stuff, though.

My on course longest drive is 405yds.  But it was dry and a little downhill, carried probably 350yds.  

[colin007]

275 with a SS of 115 isn't very efficient contact. I should know because that's me.

[Buckeyebowman]

A 20 degree launch angle is going to be too high. And at those kind of clubhead speeds I'd say you need a XX or XXX stiff shaft. Don't forget that your choice of ball can make a difference in spin rate, though it just occurred to me that in a long drive competition maybe everybody hits the same ball? I really don't know.

Also, I'd get on a Trackman or something and check your angle of attack. If you're hitting up 2 degrees on the ball, that's 2 degrees less loft you need on your clubface.

And don't forget something that Tom Wishon wrote. Faster clubhead speed means faster ball speed off the clubface (provided that you're hitting it square), which will translate into additional height on the shot. I've gone to Tour events and am constantly amazed at how high the pros, especially the big hitters, hit their drivers!

I wish you luck!

[freshmanUTA]

19 hours ago, phillyk said:

My on course longest drive is 405yds.  But it was dry and a little downhill, carried probably 350yds.  

Yeah actually that's one of things i'm looking forward to, the place the qualifier is is drier than dry and last year people were carrying the ball 350ish and the final distance ended up being in the 390's to 400's.

17 hours ago, colin007 said:

275 with a SS of 115 isn't very efficient contact. I should know because that's me.

I think you'd be pretty surprised to know that that's about 10 yards shy of tour average. I just have trouble finding middle when I swing slower, it's uncomfortable but the ball goes straight.

17 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

A 20 degree launch angle is going to be too high. And at those kind of clubhead speeds I'd say you need a XX or XXX stiff shaft. Don't forget that your choice of ball can make a difference in spin rate, though it just occurred to me that in a long drive competition maybe everybody hits the same ball? I really don't know.

Also, I'd get on a Trackman or something and check your angle of attack. If you're hitting up 2 degrees on the ball, that's 2 degrees less loft you need on your clubface.

Yeah, everyone gets the same 8 balls. They're orange volviks.

I really need to just go in and look at my numbers with a professional. But I think the fact that I had a 20* launch angle tells me I'm probably hitting 5-6* up

[1badbadger]

22 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

 I noticed that my launch angles were always between 19 and 23 degrees, with my longest drive having a launch angle of 12.5. My backspin was roughly 3,100 on the low end, and 5,100 on the high end. I'm planning on getting fit for a driver for when I attempt to qualify for the competition, but I'd like to know a little more about what the launch angle, spin and loft of a driver do to affect the distance of the shot. I thought that having a SS in the 130's with a 20* launch angle would send the ball flying, but my average was about 325, with my longest drive measuring 345, with a launch angle of 12.5, and backspin of 3,600.

 From the phone conversation we had, the fitter said it sounds like I would be best suited for a loft around 5-8*, and a shaft thats around 50 grams. Is this true?

The good news is you have a ton of swing speed freshman.  The bad news...your launch conditions need work.  The other good news?  I can help.

One basic fundamental of having the proper trajectory is the slower a player's swing speed, the higher the launch angle needs to be and the more backspin is needed.  As swing speed increases, the launch and spin become lower. So let's start by putting a few things in perspective.  A player who swings 60 mph with a driver should ideally launch the ball at 18*.  If you are launching it between 19-23* at 135 mph, something isn't right.  It's very hard to launch a ball that high with a solid hit using a typical 9.5-12* driver.  About the only way I know to do that is by popping it off the top of the crown, which of course wouldn't be a solid hit. The tech you spoke with on the phone is correct...most long drive guys use heads specifically designed for competition which are very low lofted.  These drivers are usually in the 5-8* range.  A swing speed of 135 mph has an ideal launch angle of 7.9* (call it 8*). 140 mph should be around 7.2*.  Backspin ideally needs to be around 1900-2000 rpms.

There are shafts designed for long drive too.  Keep in mind a 50" driver has a very heavy swing weight because it's so long, so lighter shafts will help.  Ask about warranty policies because broken shafts are common.  I've seen guys who are still learning to swing a driver that long hit the ground about a foot behind the ball, and at 130 mph it will snap the shaft. It's also not unusual to catch one one the toe or in towards the heel (again because the club is so long) and it will twist that head right off just above the hosel.  So ask about their policy on that.

Double check your launch angle because that doesn't seem right...I think there might be an error there.

[Lihu]

29 minutes ago, 1badbadger said:

The good news is you have a ton of swing speed freshman.  The bad news...your launch conditions need work.  The other good news?  I can help.

One basic fundamental of having the proper trajectory is the slower a player's swing speed, the higher the launch angle needs to be and the more backspin is needed.  As swing speed increases, the launch and spin become lower. So let's start by putting a few things in perspective.  A player who swings 60 mph with a driver should ideally launch the ball at 18*.  If you are launching it between 19-23* at 135 mph, something isn't right.  It's very hard to launch a ball that high with a solid hit using a typical 9.5-12* driver.  About the only way I know to do that is by popping it off the top of the crown, which of course wouldn't be a solid hit. The tech you spoke with on the phone is correct...most long drive guys use heads specifically designed for competition which are very low lofted.  These drivers are usually in the 5-8* range.  A swing speed of 135 mph has an ideal launch angle of 7.9* (call it 8*). 140 mph should be around 7.2*.  Backspin ideally needs to be around 1900-2000 rpms.

There are shafts designed for long drive too.  Keep in mind a 50" driver has a very heavy swing weight because it's so long, so lighter shafts will help.  Ask about warranty policies because broken shafts are common.  I've seen guys who are still learning to swing a driver that long hit the ground about a foot behind the ball, and at 130 mph it will snap the shaft. It's also not unusual to catch one one the toe or in towards the heel (again because the club is so long) and it will twist that head right off just above the hosel.  So ask about their policy on that.

Double check your launch angle because that doesn't seem right...I think there might be an error there.

Good you put some perspective on this thread. I was beginning to feel like people were just "comparing distances". I was waiting for someone to say something like "Yeah, I feel you man. I only carry about 450 yards with a SS of 175, and have the same launch issues you do " or something like that.

[1badbadger]

22 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Good you put some perspective on this thread. I was beginning to feel like people were just "comparing distances". I was waiting for someone to say something like "Yeah, I feel you man. I only carry about 450 yards with a SS of 175, and have the same launch issues you do " or something like that.

Lol!  I can't really fathom swing speeds in the 130s or 140s with ball speeds of 200 mph.  It's like trying to wrap your brain around how much money Bill Gates has...really hard to imagine. 

[freshmanUTA]

1 hour ago, 1badbadger said:

The good news is you have a ton of swing speed freshman.  The bad news...your launch conditions need work.  The other good news?  I can help.

One basic fundamental of having the proper trajectory is the slower a player's swing speed, the higher the launch angle needs to be and the more backspin is needed.  As swing speed increases, the launch and spin become lower. So let's start by putting a few things in perspective.  A player who swings 60 mph with a driver should ideally launch the ball at 18*.  If you are launching it between 19-23* at 135 mph, something isn't right.  It's very hard to launch a ball that high with a solid hit using a typical 9.5-12* driver.  About the only way I know to do that is by popping it off the top of the crown, which of course wouldn't be a solid hit. The tech you spoke with on the phone is correct...most long drive guys use heads specifically designed for competition which are very low lofted.  These drivers are usually in the 5-8* range.  A swing speed of 135 mph has an ideal launch angle of 7.9* (call it 8*). 140 mph should be around 7.2*.  Backspin ideally needs to be around 1900-2000 rpms.

There are shafts designed for long drive too.  Keep in mind a 50" driver has a very heavy swing weight because it's so long, so lighter shafts will help.  Ask about warranty policies because broken shafts are common.  I've seen guys who are still learning to swing a driver that long hit the ground about a foot behind the ball, and at 130 mph it will snap the shaft. It's also not unusual to catch one one the toe or in towards the heel (again because the club is so long) and it will twist that head right off just above the hosel.  So ask about their policy on that.

Double check your launch angle because that doesn't seem right...I think there might be an error there.

I think the launch angle is correct because my most common mishits are balls that go miles high but really short. Almost like a pop-up in baseball, but not because I hit the ball off the literal crown of the club. I honestly think I might be swinging too far up on the ball. Maybe teeing the ball a tad lower would help this? I see the pros who bomb it don't really tee the ball that high but I've always assumed this was an accuracy thing. Might as well give it a try though. I will definitely ask about it when I go to the fitting. From the way it sounds, my launch angle is killing my distance.

I'm actually surprised at what my launch angle needs to be. I would have thought that a high launch angle would help with distance.. Learn something new every day I guess.

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Good you put some perspective on this thread. I was beginning to feel like people were just "comparing distances". I was waiting for someone to say something like "Yeah, I feel you man. I only carry about 450 yards with a SS of 175, and have the same launch issues you do " or something like that.

I was trying to avoid this thread becoming a "who hits it the farthest" type of thread. I had legitimate questions I wanted answered and his response was more than helpful.

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

I was trying to avoid this thread becoming a "who hits it the farthest" type of thread. I had legitimate questions I wanted answered and his response was more than helpful.

I could see that you were being earnest in your questions plus I seem to remember even a couple years back you mentioning a fast SS, but it could have devolved quickly into that.

Long drive sounds really expensive, and I can only imagine if you have to replace longer super stiff and super light shafts all the time. I'd guess the heads are pretty cheap in comparison since they're generally low COR heads anyway. . .

Teeing up lower isn't what I see long drive guys doing. It seems like they tee up really high?
 

3 hours ago, 1badbadger said:

Lol!  I can't really fathom swing speeds in the 130s or 140s with ball speeds of 200 mph.  It's like trying to wrap your brain around how much money Bill Gates has...really hard to imagine. 

I can't either.

[freshmanUTA]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I could see that you were being earnest in your questions plus I seem to remember even a couple years back you mentioning a fast SS, but it could have devolved quickly into that.

Long drive sounds really expensive, and I can only imagine if you have to replace longer super stiff and super light shafts all the time. I'd guess the heads are pretty cheap in comparison since they're generally low COR heads anyway. . .

After I graduated high school I stopped playing and really only ever went to the range with my friends and you know us guys, it's always a who can hit farthest contest so while the rest of my game suffered, my distance/SS was never really an issue. During the summer last year I developed a bad habit of hitting down on the driver which caused me to lose a ton of distance, my average drive was 200-220 which was discouraging considering how fast I was swinging. In fact my golf coach said that if i didn't swing so hard, thus adding a ton of backspin, the ball wouldn't have gone as far as it did. I've been working a lot on swing up through the driver and I think that's why my launch angle gets pretty high.

The cost is huge, I'm in college so I don't have an unlimited pocket but I'd be willing to save up and invest in a good driver so long as it has a good warranty. Its 40$ to enter and if I qualify for regionals it's 175$ and then if I make it past that, it's free but travel isn't paid for. But if I even make it past the qualifiers I'm guaranteed a prize of $1,000 which would be enough to break even on the club, and it would make for one hell of a story to tell.

[colin007]

Teeing it up lower will only encourage a more downward strike, no bueno. I'm wondering if the OP is having other issues affecting the quality of his contact. Like I said, 275 isn't efficient at 115 mph - I suffer the same malady. I looked at @freshmanUTA's My Swing thread and he mentions his upper center moving forward on the DS, doing this usually necessitates throwing/casting the club head or else you'll come crashing down a foot behind the ball. This would explain the too high launch numbers and high spin.

[Lihu]

14 minutes ago, freshmanUTA said:

The cost is huge, I'm in college so I don't have an unlimited pocket but I'd be willing to save up and invest in a good driver so long as it has a good warranty. Its 40$ to enter and if I qualify for regionals it's 175$ and then if I make it past that, it's free but travel isn't paid for. But if I even make it past the qualifiers I'm guaranteed a prize of $1,000 which would be enough to break even on the club, and it would make for one hell of a story to tell.

From what I've seen on the Remax videos, it looks like they have many drivers. I'd guess replacement drivers along with drivers for different conditions? You have to love watching those wrestle mania sized people scream out of their shoes. Young, old, female and male all alike in that regard. I bet you'll have fun!

 

8 minutes ago, colin007 said:

Teeing it up lower will only encourage a more downward strike, no bueno. I'm wondering if the OP is having other issues affecting the quality of his contact. Like I said, 275 isn't efficient at 115 mph - I suffer the same malady. I looked at @freshmanUTA's My Swing thread and he mentions his upper center moving forward on the DS, doing this usually necessitates throwing/casting the club head or else you'll come crashing down a foot behind the ball. This would explain the too high launch numbers and high spin.

What is the smash factor the LDA guys typically get?

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-loft-on-long-drive-champs-driver-is-insane

http://krankgolf.com/

[freshmanUTA]

13 minutes ago, Lihu said:

What is the smash factor the LDA guys typically get?

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-loft-on-long-drive-champs-driver-is-insane

http://krankgolf.com/

I read that article, that's nuts. 3* loft? Wow! But that actually gave me a little bit of hope considering I've been blasting a 10.5* driver this whole time! I'm nowhere close to 439, but I sure do believe I can get there!

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, freshmanUTA said:

I read that article, that's nuts. 3* loft? Wow! But that actually gave me a little bit of hope considering I've been blasting a 10.5* driver this whole time! I'm nowhere close to 439, but I sure do believe I can get there!

You'll know way more about this stuff than most of us, it'd be interesting to hear your progress.

The only reason I posted in this thread is because I recognized your avatar and name. Other than that, I have no business in a long drive thread.

[1badbadger]

2 hours ago, freshmanUTA said:

I think the launch angle is correct because my most common mishits are balls that go miles high but really short. Almost like a pop-up in baseball, but not because I hit the ball off the literal crown of the club. I honestly think I might be swinging too far up on the ball. Maybe teeing the ball a tad lower would help this? I see the pros who bomb it don't really tee the ball that high but I've always assumed this was an accuracy thing. Might as well give it a try though. I will definitely ask about it when I go to the fitting. From the way it sounds, my launch angle is killing my distance.

I'm actually surprised at what my launch angle needs to be. I would have thought that a high launch angle would help with distance.. Learn something new every day I guess.

Teeing the ball lower seems like the obvious adjustment, but I would caution against it.  Teeing the ball lower will change your angle of attack so you're hitting down on the ball, which will lower your launch, but it will also increase your backspin like the white line on this chart.  We definitely don't want that.  

What is pretty unusual is your high launch/high spin combination.  A positive angle of attack (hitting up on the ball) usually creates a high launch/low spin condition, so it's a little unusual.  The first thing I would suggest (and they will probably do this at your fitting) is to determine where on the face you are impacting the ball.  This can be done very easily with some impact tape or a little talc.  Lightly dust the driver face with talc, or the back of the ball and it will leave a mark which wipes off. There are three reasons for this...to help figure out why your launch is so high, why your spin is so high, and why there is 2,000 rpms between your low and high spin rates.  That's a pretty big difference.  Plus, it may shed some light on your launch angle. A player with a 4-5* positive angle of attack is very good, so with a 10* driver this would produce a 14-15* launch angle. I'm not sure what loft your current driver is, but assuming it's around 9.5-10.5*, you'd have to have a positive attack angle of 10-12* to be launching it at around 20*.  I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone do that.  

If you are, then the next question is why is your spin so high. Hitting up on the ball that much should produce very low spin, and if you're hitting shots in the 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 range, that's more than twice as high as I'd like to see. It's not uncommon for really high swing speed players to have too much spin, but they typically have much lower launch, so this is out of the ordinary.  I'm starting to think you might be catching it very close to the top of the face like this:

Based on the info you provided, your launch and spin can be as low as 12.5* and 3100 rpms, and as high as 23* and 5100 rpms.  This tells me you are hitting different parts of the face, and I honestly think that some of those shots were hit at the extreme top of the face or slightly off the crown.  I don't see any other way to get 20-23* launch and over 5000 rpms of spin. The impact tape will reveal the answer, and this is where I would recommend starting...find out where you're hitting it and if you're hitting it in the same place every time.  This will help determine which direction to go next.

Hope this helps.