Longer, it`s better, but not at all cost

[p1n9183]

48 minutes ago, iacas said:

It could also have been your execution.

That's still using math.

Hit the ball inside my shot zone with the 4 iron, but the zone have in it a little of water. Not the best shot but not an outlier.  

[Jack Watson]

On 4/25/2017 at 10:27 AM, iacas said:

That's still using math.

Yes,  maybe bad terminology on my part.  What I mean is that for me I don't apply a 'blanket strategy'.  I don't decide before playing what clubs I will tee off with for example.  For me it depends on that days feel.

One hole,  a par five that I play could be driver off tee or five iron it depends on the day.   This on my home course that I know.

 

[JonMA1]

58 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Yes,  maybe bad terminology on my part.  What I mean is that for me I don't apply a 'blanket strategy'.  I don't decide before playing what clubs I will tee off with for example.  For me it depends on that days feel.

One hole,  a par five that I play could be driver off tee or five iron it depends on the day.   This on my home course that I know.

 

I kind of understand this but my game has to be really bad (as opposed to my normal bad) to change the numbers I use to determine which club to pull.

With many holes it's easy - the driver provides the most distance and it isn't like I'm deadly accurate with fairway woods. So choosing distance over accuracy is a no brainer. What will usually make me choose a lesser club has more to do with the possibility of running out of room distance-wise than trouble left and right. Getting too much distance on a shot can be every bit as damaging as not enough.

That said, we don't play perfectly level courses with the exact same weather conditions, so my "stock" distances only provide a baseline for decisions.

When it comes to shorter approach shots, that's where feel might take over. For me, there are a few options when faced with a 125 yard shot to the green.

[roamin]

On 4/24/2017 at 8:19 PM, p1n9183 said:

This weekend i faced a really tough hole, i should make a thread like that and ask for strategy to play it.

Make a bogey and a double so my strategy of hitting from the tee with an iron didn`t work.

I have hole like that on my home course (tough tee-shot choice). It's a par four with a large pond down the right side, probable lost ball or forced chip-out if you go left, but a huge reward if you keep it straight or make it over the water as the ground slopes towards the hole. I love hitting driver on the hole, as the potential reward is great, but after a few straight rounds in the water I decided to give my 4-iron a try, since a perfect shot would leave me just shy of all possible trouble.

The first two rounds I bogied the hole, so nothing special, but not in the water. Since then I've managed several pars and a birdie (that I even managed to record on video!). I couldn't have done it any better that day. Two, perfect 175yd 4-irons, the second of which stopped in the middle of the green. Then I drained the 25-foot birdie putt and won a quarter. 

Only one double, after a shanked chip shot and bad putting, but no penalties. I have played the hole well with the driver before, but the long-term average makes the choice easy...and honestly, even if I needed the birdie, I still think I like my odds with the 4-iron. 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by roamin

[mdl]

On 4/25/2017 at 7:27 AM, iacas said:

That's still using math.

Haha.  Indeed.

[inthehole]

I play with a few younger guys that have great swings and put the time into lessons from pro's who teach them to swing like pro's ... swings look great, but problem is they swing out of their shoes and cant control it & maybe one out of five times can keep it on the fairway at close to 300 yds.   They spend so much time scrambling and I just plod along with my 240-250 yd controlled drive and beat them.   At the elite level, distance is obviously key, but unless they have an astoundingly good recovery game, they're gonna get beat.   I'm not a believer in distance is everything unless you're going to put a crazy amount of time in trying to learn to control it swinging that hard... 

Edited May 7, 2017 by inthehole

[Single Length Irons Guy]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:56 PM, roamin said:

I have hole like that on my home course (tough tee-shot choice). It's a par four with a large pond down the right side, probable lost ball or forced chip-out if you go left, but a huge reward if you keep it straight or make it over the water as the ground slopes towards the hole. I love hitting driver on the hole, as the potential reward is great, but after a few straight rounds in the water I decided to give my 4-iron a try, since a perfect shot would leave me just shy of all possible trouble.

The first two rounds I bogied the hole, so nothing special, but not in the water. Since then I've managed several pars and a birdie (that I even managed to record on video!). I couldn't have done it any better that day. Two, perfect 175yd 4-irons, the second of which stopped in the middle of the green. Then I drained the 25-foot birdie putt and won a quarter. 

Only one double, after a shanked chip shot and bad putting, but no penalties. I have played the hole well with the driver before, but the long-term average makes the choice easy...and honestly, even if I needed the birdie, I still think I like my odds with the 4-iron. 

 

I'm right there with you -- I left my driver at home 6 months ago and it never made it's way back into the bag ==> went from 30% fairways in regulation to 70% by doing that.

Recently built a set of single length fairway woods (which are 1.5 inches shorter than my old 3 wood) which seem to be the ticket to accuracy with moderate distance (3W=225-230).

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:46 PM, lastings said:

Well, this is basically the crux of it.  Where does the longer shot get you and what are the potential hazards?  if you're talking about an extra 20-25 yds, and the potential hazard is some light rough, take out that big guy all day long.   But, if you're playing a tight hole and a mishit puts you in the wood, or OB, or water, avoid that at all costs.   Penalty strokes are score killers.   if the potential hazard is something in between, like a flat fairway bunker or something, I think that is a risk/reward play you have to weigh on a case-by-case basis.   

either all that stuff I said, Or, learn how to knock that big bomber right down the gut every time..   

 

I saw an interesting video by Hank Haney about "penalty strokes". For him, a penalty stroke was any stroke you had to take without advancing the ball toward the green, In other words, punching out sideways. And you're right, they will blow your score right out of the water!

There's a short, dog-leg right par4 around a pond at a local course that my buddy always tries to drive! He might be successful one time in twenty! I hit a 4 hybrid to the elbow, 8 iron to the green, and usually par the thing. You have to use your head, and your gut.

[roamin]

9 hours ago, Single Length Irons Guy said:

I'm right there with you -- I left my driver at home 6 months ago and it never made it's way back into the bag ==> went from 30% fairways in regulation to 70% by doing that.

Whoa there, I said there's this one hole. I love my driver. 

Honestly, I don't care about FIRs (well I do, but that's just an ego thing). The question is, "Will I have a shot?" Fairway, light rough, playable fairway bunkers, dirt, whatever is in play, club selection on the tee box comes down to which club let's me hit it the furthest, and guarantees no penalties and a good chance of having a line to the target on the next shot. Just a 75% chance is good enough for me. Let's face it, I hit lots of bad shots with all of my clubs, no reason to hold the driver to a (wildly) different standard.

I'm only averaging 30% FIR myself lately, but my scoring issues have nothing to do with my driver. In fact, turns out "the big stick" is doing its job better than any of it's brethren...

 

For me, a 3W off the tee is good for about 220, max, but I average 235 with the driver. At least a one club difference on the next shot, but the average is misleading. To use my round from today as an example...

I can spray it with the best of them, but, out of 13 drives, 10 resulted in clear shots towards the target, and the three that didn't still left playable shots and chances for GIRs or near GIRs. Six drives were 245+ and (today) I maxed out at 258. That's 25-40 yards, or as many as five clubs difference on half of my tee shots versus what I'd get using a 3W. 

As for the the accuracy component (the linchpin of the 3W argument), FIRs was actually higher than my recent average but I shot a 93, three strokes higher than my scoring average in the same period.

Only one round, yes, but I'll also add that my longest drive over the last 3 rounds is 292, with four over 275, all playable. So, even though the other half of my tee shots don't go where I want them to, it's not even worth calling it a 'risk or reward' situation. As far as my game goes, truly no comparison.

If you can't put the driver 'in play' at all (for whatever reason) and a 3W magically makes it all better, then okay. But I know what I would be devoting my practice time to. 

Also, FWIW, I bogeyed the one hole that I didn't hit driver on. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by roamin

[Single Length Irons Guy]

6 hours ago, roamin said:

Whoa there, I said there's this one hole. I love my driver. 

Honestly, I don't care about FIRs (well I do, but that's just an ego thing). The question is, "Will I have a shot?" Fairway, light rough, playable fairway bunkers, dirt, whatever is in play, club selection on the tee box comes down to which club let's me hit it the furthest, and guarantees no penalties and a good chance of having a line to the target on the next shot. Just a 75% chance is good enough for me. Let's face it, I hit lots of bad shots with all of my clubs, no reason to hold the driver to a (wildly) different standard.

Read more  

Thanks for the detailed reply!

Did you get those screenshots from GameGolf? Lots of good data!  I would like to see the same dispersion chart for your 3 wood off the tee, just for fun 

I use the "Grint" app, which doesn't show the strokes vs scratch data -- although I now wish that it did!

I guess that not using the driver works for me because my "Approach" strokes vs scratch number (iron shots) is much closer to my "Off the Tee" number (3-wood / iron shots) (based on my game, no numbers to back that up unfortunately). Plus I carry the 4-iron 205 and I'm not playing any 205+ yard par3's or 440+ yard par 4's, so I'm still have a chance to hit the green in regulation using my 3-wood off the tee (225 carry) on par 4's and par 5's.

Since I use single length clubs, the dispersion pattern of my 4 iron is much closer to the dispersion pattern of my PW than most people, so gaining the extra few clubs distance closer to the green doesn't affect my score as much as it does for others.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Single Length Irons Guy

[roamin]

11 hours ago, Single Length Irons Guy said:

Did you get those screenshots from GameGolf? Lots of good data!  I would like to see the same dispersion chart for your 3 wood off the tee, just for fun

Yep, from GG. I just got the live device a few weeks ago and only have seven rounds logged so far. I've only hit 3W off the tee three times this year (when tees were up and brought water into play on an otherwise "safe driving" hole), but none since I started using GG. All three were perfect, though - tiny draws, right up the middle. With more use, I'm sure my shot dispersion would spread a bit, but even if the accuracy was spectacular, a few clubs means a lot for me...

(note: these screens include a few tee-shots on par 3s, not much data in the system yet)

11 hours ago, Single Length Irons Guy said:

I guess that not using the driver works for me because my "Approach" strokes vs scratch number (iron shots) is much closer to my "Off the Tee" number (3-wood / iron shots) (based on my game, no numbers to back that up unfortunately). Plus I carry the 4-iron 205 and I'm not playing any 205+ yard par3's or 440+ yard par 4's, so I'm still have a chance to hit the green in regulation using my 3-wood off the tee (225 carry) on par 4's and par 5's.

That may change things, 4-iron carry for me is ~170 and dispersion is no better than my 5-iron (seen above). But even then, if I was hitting my 4-iron 205, I'd assume my driver average would be a good bit higher as well, and wedge vs. 8-iron sounds tasty.  

[Moppy]

On 5/7/2017 at 8:51 PM, Buckeyebowman said:

There's a short, dog-leg right par4 around a pond at a local course that my buddy always tries to drive! He might be successful one time in twenty! I hit a 4 hybrid to the elbow, 8 iron to the green, and usually par the thing.

There is a similar hole on my home course, except it is tall trees, and I am like your buddy, but you know what? After losing a ton of balls I have started to have about a 50% success rate driving those trees, and when I do it, it becomes a birdie hole. I guess I play more for the memory of my better shots than I do for score, which is something I have to work on. I think if I cared more about the score, I would concentrate better, and lack of concentration is my biggest killer right now. 

I guess I treat that hole like a tennis serve, if the first one is a "fault," I hit into the elbow with a five hybrid.  (Never do this if there are people behind us, BTW, which is rare anyway)

Edited May 10, 2017 by Moppy