Steve Elkington/Rory McIlroy Twitter Fight

[nevets88]

What is it with former Australian pro golfers of a certain age? Norman's social media timeline is bizarre and egomaniacal, Elkington is get off my lawn on steroids.

[skydog]

Elk is a tool, no doubt.

That said, I think there's some truth to his comments. Relative to his immense talent, Rory is underperforming, and my money is on it continuing. I don't know if it's from all the money/fame/complacency like Elk suggests, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that when you have enough money for your great great grandkids to never have to work a day in their life, it's definitely possible that you could lose some drive.

Rory isn't getting better while the competition keeps improving. His putting downright sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if he never wins another major.

Edited June 18, 2017 by skydog

[nevets88]

I'm not following him closely, but just from reading about him peripherally, this is what I know -  he's got new clubs, he just got married, he's had injury problems. Not making excuses for him, but sometimes life just comes at you.

[saevel25]

5 minutes ago, skydog said:

but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that when you have enough money for your great great grandkids to never have to work a day in their life, it's definitely possible that you could lose some drive.

That is assuming Rory did all this for the money. Which I highly doubt. I think he puts in a ton of time on his game. You don't transform your body to that of a high level athlete with out the drive to compete at the highest level. 

Lets not forget he has been battling injuries this year. 

[skydog]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

That is assuming Rory did all this for the money.

No I don't think so. That's not the implication. He obviously has a ton of talent and love for the game, just as all of the greats have had. But when you have hundreds of millions in the bank before you're 30, it's natural to lose at least some  drive. That's human nature, not specific to Rory. Some guys have enough internal drive to rise above it and have such a fierce competitive nature that it doesn't effect their game, but I'm not sure that Rory has that. We'll see.

[saevel25]

Just now, skydog said:

 But when you have hundreds of millions in the bank before you're 30, it's natural to lose at least some  drive. That's human nature, not specific to Rory. Some guys have enough internal drive to rise above it and have such a fierce competitive nature that it doesn't effect their game, but I'm not sure that Rory has that. We'll see.

Drive for what? Money? Sure. These guys want to win, to have a legacy. The legacy in golf has never been money it's majors and wins. 

I do not think Rory's drive to win has been diminished by his wealth. 

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, skydog said:

That said, I think there's some truth to his comments. Relative to his immense talent, Rory is underperforming, and my money is on it continuing.

Wow, so you found a way to quantify his talent?

What if he over-performed for a few years, and out-played his talent level? What if Jordan Spieth, similarly, won all the majors he's ever going to win, and out-performed his talent level too?

You don't know how talented Rory is, not in any way that's not an opinion. You also can't say factually if he's under-performed, over-performed, or performed exactly at the expected level.

15 minutes ago, skydog said:

I don't know if it's from all the money/fame/complacency like Elk suggests, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that when you have enough money for your great great grandkids to never have to work a day in their life, it's definitely possible that you could lose some drive.

What's the evidence of this loss of drive? He's worked harder in his career than Elk ever did during his.

15 minutes ago, skydog said:

Rory isn't getting better while the competition keeps improving. His putting downright sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if he never wins another major.

Putting is a talent, no? Maybe Rory isn't as talented as you think?

[skydog]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

You don't know how talented Rory is, not in any way that's not an opinion. You also can't say factually if he's under-performed, over-performed, or performed exactly at the expected level.

....OK. This is a sports forum where we just discuss opinions based on what we see with our eyes and ears. Yes, there's no quantifiable means of measuring god given talent or internal drive. These are subjective topics, just as most everything  on this forum is. Not sure what your point is, other than just your usual attempt at de-legitimizing opinions that don't jive with yours.

[saevel25]

1 minute ago, skydog said:

....OK. This is a sports forum where we just discuss opinions based on what we see with our eyes and ears. 

You've seen nothing. You haven't seen him practice. You have heard him talk about his goals or his drive for the game. You just assume it based not hearing or seeing anything. 

The guy is 28 years old with 13 PGA Tour wins and 4 MAJORS!. The guy signed with Nike in 2013 and then went on to win two Majors in 2014. Sounds like the money didn't hurt him then. 

Golf is HARD! We do not have all the facts as to why he has struggled over the past 3 years. 

[skydog]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

You've seen nothing. You haven't seen him practice. You have heard him talk about his goals or his drive for the game. You just assume it based not hearing or seeing anything. 

Guys, calm down here. Just offering my $0.02, no different than anyone else. All I've said is to me something seems to be missing with Rory . He could very well come out and rack up 5 majors over the next three years, who knows. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

When I see guys like Koepka now, they have as much horsepower than Rory and have a more complete game. Rory doesn't seem to be getting better while everyone else around him is. The reason- I don't know, but if I had to bet, I would say he never wins another major.

Edited June 18, 2017 by skydog

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, skydog said:

....OK. This is a sports forum where we just discuss opinions based on what we see with our eyes and ears. Yes, there's no quantifiable means of measuring god given talent or internal drive. These are subjective topics, just as most everything  on this forum is. Not sure what your point is, other than just your usual attempt at de-legitimizing opinions that don't jive with yours.

I'm discussing it just like you are. My "point" is to point out that you're making statements that you can't quantify, that Rory has under-performed, and then using that as a basis for the further opinion that he's slacked off and lacks the drive. The foundation for your concluding opinion is yet another opinion. It's a house of cards. I don't even agree with your foundational opinion, yet you're using it for the opinion that follows.

What if Rory has out-performed his talent level? Or, what if, with a bit less work, he'd have not won a single major, and his incredible work ethic and drive is the only thing that allowed him to elevate his game that little bit more to achieve what he's achieved?

6 minutes ago, skydog said:

Guys, calm down here.

I can't speak for Matt, but I'm perfectly calm, guy.

You're reading in a tone or anxiety level or something that doesn't exist (on my end).

[skydog]

11 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

Golf is HARD! We do not have all the facts as to why he has struggled over the past 3 years. 

Of course, yes I know. In the absence of facts, all we can do is speculate and discuss. That is the purpose of this forum. It's not fun to debate facts.

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 The foundation for your concluding opinion is yet another opinion. It's a house of cards. I don't even agree with your foundational opinion, yet you're using it for the opinion that follows.

Wasn't trying to 'prove' anything. Just offering up my $0.02. Simple as that. Opinions are all we have in sports hypotheticals.

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, skydog said:

Of course, yes I know. In the absence of facts, all we can do is speculate and discuss. That is the purpose of this forum. It's not fun to debate facts.

No shit. So comments like "other than your usual attempts at" whatever have no place. I'm discussing it just like you are. One method of discussion is to say why I find your argument or position weak or lacking.

5 minutes ago, skydog said:

Wasn't trying to 'prove' anything. Just offering up my $0.02. Simple as that. Opinions are all we have in sports hypotheticals.

I think we all know that. No need to point it out. I disagree with your opinion, and Elk's. And have shared why.

[skydog]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

No shit. So comments like "other than your usual attempts at" whatever have no place. I'm discussing it just like you are. One method of discussion is to say why I find your argument or position weak or lacking.

 

You didn't actually offer any counter opinion; i.e. something along the lines of stating how much Rory has been practicing, etc. Something. All you did is try to say that I couldn't prove my opinion with facts.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, skydog said:

You didn't actually offer any counter opinion; i.e. something along the lines of stating how much Rory has been practicing, etc. Something. All you did is try to say that I couldn't prove with facts my opinions.

Yes, I have.

And in debates you can present your own case or poke holes in the cases of others. You don't have to do both EVERY time you post.

Rory (likely) works harder at his game than Elkington ever did at his. He has plenty of drive. I disagree with Elkington.

[zipazoid]

When I see someone like Rory, who seemed dominant a couple years back, now struggling & someone like Spieth who won back-to-back Majors in 2015 kinda doing the same, know what I think?

Tiger was pretty damn good.

And Elk is an asshat (trying to stay in touch with the thread lol).

[skydog]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

Rory (likely) works harder at his game than Elkington ever did at his.

I would be willing to bet most anything on that.

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

He has plenty of drive.

Impossible thing to quantify IMO without stalking the guy or his coach. Maybe he does, honestly I have no idea.

Again, just because Elk is a d bag doesn't make the comments entirely baseless. Maybe they are, but the message and messenger need to be separated to have an honest debate here.

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, skydog said:

Impossible thing to quantify…

You should have just stopped there.

You have no idea. I have an opinion on whether he has enough drive.

13 minutes ago, skydog said:

Again, just because Elk is a d bag doesn't make the comments entirely baseless.

I don't see anyone making that argument.

13 minutes ago, skydog said:

Maybe they are, but the message and messenger need to be separated to have an honest debate here.

I'm not conflating the two. Are you? Who is?

Gotta go pick up my pad thai.