Mark Crossfield vs. TaylorMade

[Big_in_Belgium]

24 minutes ago, lastings said:

Mark Crossfield has been playing Mizuno MP5s for the past couple years as his "gamers" and swears by them.    It will be interesting to see if he miraculously decides that he needs some Titleists in has bag as his gamers this summer.  

Well, obviously, it's not miraculously. He has a deal with Titleist to play almost excusively their gear.
And he has played other sets in the previous years before he settled on the MP5's.

18 minutes ago, RussUK said:

He is using almost a full bag of Titleists . Only one club isnt a Titleist but not sure which one it is. The Mizuno's are probably in his shed!

Also gone fromn Chromesofts to Pro V's

The one club he hasn't changed is the Ping hybrid, the one he calls Rinky Dinks.
Titleist allowed him to have that stay in the bag allthough he will be testing their hybrid at some point to see if it can replace the Ping.

[RussUK]

37 minutes ago, lastings said:

Ha!, that was quick.   He was still using the MP-5s as of whatever date he reviewed the Mizuno MP-18s.   and at the end of that review, he mentioned he'd be sticking with the MP-5s..  

Definately quick. He posted a Christmas vlog with his new staff bag saying from 2018 he will be gaming Titleist clubs. Apparently the 718's (if i have my numbering correct) are very similar to the Mizuno's

40 minutes ago, Big_in_Belgium said:

Well, obviously, it's not miraculously. He has a deal with Titleist to play almost excusively their gear.
And he has played other sets in the previous years before he settled on the MP5's.

The one club he hasn't changed is the Ping hybrid, the one he calls Rinky Dinks.
Titleist allowed him to have that stay in the bag allthough he will be testing their hybrid at some point to see if it can replace the Ping.

That was the one!. was leaniing towards old rinky or his power hybrid

[Moxley]

43 minutes ago, mchepp said:

Then I watched the full TaylorMade video and I don't completely agree with Mark. For one, he should not expect if he is going to take sponsorship money from someone that he should get to continue to get equipment from other manufacturers. Although he does tend to be fair in his reviews, it is just hard for me to completely believe he is being impartial knowing he has a lean towards one manufacturer. If I was head of TaylorMade I'd probably do the same thing.

 

I agree, he was illogical and bordered on disingenuous in his comments. He states that he concentrates on the attributes (cog etc) of the clubs rather than giving subjective opinions, as if that means the attributes aren't important in purchasing decisions, and there is no scope for bias in analysing the club features. This clearly isn't the case - the attributes (like spin) do matter, and it's completely possible for him to present a distorted view of them IF he wanted to. He then poses the question 'how can I be biased' , as if he'd just proven that it wasn't possible for him to be biased.

The fact he may not plan to be biased does not nullify the possibility for it to happen, and TM's right to take a different view on it.

[UlyssesSky]

Marc Crossfield's behaviour regarding Taylormade has always been ridiculous.

 

With the 2016 M1/M2 he did reviews where he set the M1 up to play as close to the M2 as possible and then claimed he couldn't see much difference between the two...

 

When TM initially refused to send him the 2017 M1/M2 he lashed out at them on all channels.When he finally got the clubs he kept claiming the moveable weights in the sole of the M1 don't have any noticeable effects because varation in strike has much bigger effects but released a video about the Callaway Epic Subzero only a couple of weeks later in which he said he didn't even bother posting his numbers with the weight in the forward position becaus the driver became almost unplayable for him when set up like that (because obviously the 11g weight in the epic has much bigger effects on launch/spin than the 12g weight in the M1...)

 

Now that he has signed with Titleist which means he will have a conflict of interests whenever he tests another manufacturer's equipment and TM has done the only sensible thing and stopped sending him equipment to test, he's starting all over again trying to make it look like TM are the bad guys who are afraid of "independent" reviews...

I've actually stopped following MC on variuos channels because I just couldn't take it any more.

 

[Moxley]

Welcome to the Sand Trap,  UlyssesSky 

[UlyssesSky]

Thank you!

[klineka]

1 hour ago, UlyssesSky said:

With the 2016 M1/M2 he did reviews where he set the M1 up to play as close to the M2 as possible and then claimed he couldn't see much difference between the two...

Now that he has signed with Titleist which means he will have a conflict of interests whenever he tests another manufacturer's equipment and TM has done the only sensible thing and stopped sending him equipment to test, he's starting all over again trying to make it look like TM are the bad guys who are afraid of "independent" reviews...

It makes sense to me for the 2016 M1/M2 to set them as close as possible, in my mind that shows that they are very similar clubs. If you are comparing two clubs it makes sense to make them as closely specd as possible. It wouldnt make sense to compare two clubs if one had all the weight in the back of the clubhead and one had all the weight in the front of the clubhead. Comparing the M2 with the M1 weight all the way forward would be similar to comparing an M2 iron with a P750 or P770 iron. 

Should he have used different lofts between the M1 and M2? When comparing two golf clubs it makes perfect sense to have as many things be the same as possible, including weight position.

 

Regarding the conflict of interest, do you have any proof or evidence to show that he will have a conflict of interest? Has he done any videos since signing with Titleist where evidence of bias towards Titleist has come through? I think it is wrong for you to assume there will be a conflict of interest when he hasnt shown any indications of that so far.

[Moxley]

1 minute ago, klineka said:

Regarding the conflict of interest, do you have any proof or evidence to show that he will have a conflict of interest? Has he done any videos since signing with Titleist where evidence of bias towards Titleist has come through? I think it is wrong for you to assume there will be a conflict of interest when he hasnt shown any indications of that so far.

 

That's not really how a conflict of interest works - the conflict arises when the competing interests give cause to believe there would be potential risk of undue influence being placed on the individual which would compromise their position. It does mean (or require that) any improper action has actually occurred. 

He's not assuming there will be a conflict of interest - there is a conflict of interest.

Consider a different example. A politician who holds significant shareholdings in a private company- a conflict of interest would arise if that politician was to be part of a panel deciding whether that company should be given a tender. Regardless of the prior integrity of the politician, most people would regard the situation as inappropriate. It would be improper not to deal with this at the outset. 

Not all conflicts of interest are unmanageable - many other manu's will trust him & decide the exposure is worthwhile, and that's fine too. 

[klineka]

2 minutes ago, Moxley said:

That's not really how a conflict of interest works - the conflict arises when the competing interests give cause to believe there would be potential risk of undue influence being placed on the individual which would compromise their position. It does mean (or require that) any improper action has actually occurred. 

He's not assuming there will be a conflict of interest - there is a conflict of interest.

Ok to clarify then, I dont think it is right for people to assume his reviews will be biased simply because there is a conflict of interest. If he comes out and says the M3 is the worst driver and the 917 D2 is the best, then sure I will agree that the conflict of interest is affecting his club review, but until that happens I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

[UlyssesSky]

@klineka

A (meaningful) comparison doesn't only focus on similarities but also on differences. He should have set up the M1 to be as different from the M2 as possible to see if there were noticeable differences. He didn't do that because he was trying to make the point there weren't any actual differences and the M1 was simply a trick by TM marketing to make people buy the (more expensive) M1 when it really didn't offer anything the M2 couldn't give them as well, which obviously and rightfully p*ssed TM off so they didn't want to give him the 2017 models to test.

Besides, making a comparison between an M2 iron and a P770 would make total sense to show to what extent they differ and to what different kind of players they may appeal. Same is true for M2 and M1 set up differently, because they both aim at different players. 

Regarding the conflict of interest Moxley has given a perfect explanation, and it's perfectly fine for people to assume his future reviews will be biased, because that's exactly why in many professions a conflict of interest has to be declared.
A player who is sponsored by Titleist testing clubs by other manufacturers is like a study on the health effects of smoking, conducted by a scientist who had his laboratory sponsored by Phillip Morris. You would at least take his results with a grain of salt, if not disregard them completely, and the same should be done with MC's future reviews.

He may not claim other products are bad, but if he should ever find a product that is or he finds actually superior to his Titleist gear, we'll never gonna know.

[klineka]

3 minutes ago, UlyssesSky said:

@klineka

A (meaningful) comparison doesn't only focus on similarities but also on differences. He should have set up the M1 to be as different from the M2 as possible to see if there were noticeable differences. He didn't do that because he was trying to make the point there weren't any actual differences and the M1 was simply a trick by TM marketing to make people buy the (more expensive) M1 when it really didn't offer anything the M2 couldn't give them as well, which obviously and rightfully p*ssed TM off so they didn't want to give him the 2017 models to test.

Besides, making a comparison between an M2 iron and a P770 would make total sense to show to what extent they differ and to what different kind of players they may appeal. Same is true for M2 and M1 set up differently, because they both aim at different players. 
 

That doesnt make sense to me. If you are trying to compare to clubs to see which one is "better" (which one goes further, more accurate, etc) then it makes total sense to make the two clubs as identical as possible. 

So youre saying that in order to make a meaningful comparison, they should be set the clubs up to be as different as possible from each other, meaning the M1 should be at 8 degrees loft with a senior flex shaft and the M2 should be at 12 degrees of loft with an XX stiff shaft? That doesnt make sense. Obviously youre going to see noticeable differences when the clubs are set up to be as different as possible from one another. 

I believe the point Crossfield was trying to make was that when the clubs are configured/set up the same way, there isnt any difference between them, and thus the price difference isnt justified in this situation. Entirely different situation if you want the weight forward or something like that. 

In my mind the better test for the M1 is testing it with the weight in various positions and seeing what impact, if any, that has on the outcome (distance, spin, accuracy, etc)

[mchepp]

52 minutes ago, klineka said:

Ok to clarify then, I dont think it is right for people to assume his reviews will be biased simply because there is a conflict of interest. If he comes out and says the M3 is the worst driver and the 917 D2 is the best, then sure I will agree that the conflict of interest is affecting his club review, but until that happens I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. 

To me your example of him saying this is worst and the other one is best is taking a viewpoint that is too black and white. If he did that he'd never get to review anything ever again, plus he'd lose all his viewers because everyone would know his reviews are meaningless.

What he can do is hide certain inadequacies of one product and highlight (gently) deficiencies of the other product. These differences are minor but might sway a buyer. I don't think it is unfair for TaylorMade to want the impression of impartiality from the person doing reviews of their product. I mean I would certainly wonder about a review of the new iPhone from a Samsung employee, would you not?

By taking the "sponsorship" he is basically a Titleist employee. I think the perception of impartiality is hard for most people to accept from one person working at a competitor of the other. 

[UlyssesSky]

4 minutes ago, klineka said:

I believe the point Crossfield was trying to make was that when the clubs are configured/set up the same way, there isnt any difference between them, and thus the price difference isnt justified in this situation. Entirely different situation if you want the weight forward or something like that. 

But that's not the point he was trying to make. He made it look like there was no difference at all between the two drivers so there would be no reason to buy the M1 at all.

What he did was basically like taking a version of a car that has AWD and another version of the same car that doesn't, then disable the AWD on the first car and tell people it doesn't make sense to buy the more expensive model because it doesn't perform any differently.

[klineka]

42 minutes ago, mchepp said:

To me your example of him saying this is worst and the other one is best is taking a viewpoint that is too black and white. If he did that he'd never get to review anything ever again, plus he'd lose all his viewers because everyone would know his reviews are meaningless.

What he can do is hide certain inadequacies of one product and highlight (gently) deficiencies of the other product. These differences are minor but might sway a buyer. I don't think it is unfair for TaylorMade to want the impression of impartiality from the person doing reviews of their product. I mean I would certainly wonder about a review of the new iPhone from a Samsung employee, would you not?

By taking the "sponsorship" he is basically a Titleist employee. I think the perception of impartiality is hard for most people to accept from one person working at a competitor of the other. 

I have never said I disagree with Taylormade's decision. I completely understand how people can think there will be bias and the sponsorship will affect his reviews. I still want to see examples of the bias before I am willing to just assume that since he's sponsored that will affect how he presents information.

The explanation he provides from about 12:30-14:30 in this video is the exact reason why I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Another point along these lines is that Taylormade is the only company that has stopped sending him stuff, he confirmed with other manufacturers that they will still be sending him clubs to review, which I highly doubt they would do if they felt like he would be severely biased or severely negative towards their clubs compared to the Titleist that are in his bag. So the fact that numerous other club manufacturers still believe in him and his message enough to send him their equipment even though he is sponsored by Titleist is another reason why I am taking the "wait and see" approach before stating that the sponsorship will cause him to be biased and present different information in his club reviews.

 

42 minutes ago, UlyssesSky said:

But that's not the point he was trying to make. He made it look like there was no difference at all between the two drivers so there would be no reason to buy the M1 at all.

What he did was basically like taking a version of a car that has AWD and another version of the same car that doesn't, then disable the AWD on the first car and tell people it doesn't make sense to buy the more expensive model because it doesn't perform any differently.

In the review video, he said, "When the weight of the M1 is dressed up to look like the M2, they are the same.. I dont see why anyone would spend more for the M1" So he was aware that he was testing them with as close to identical setups as he could get.

He also acknowledged in the video that if you are a very consistent ball striker or are very desperate to lower your spin, then the M1 could help. There is a very small subset of people that strike the ball consistently enough to where that would even apply.

He also stated that in his testing, he has only seen around 300 RPM of difference in clubs that have movable weights when they are in the front vs the back. Where you strike the ball on the face can contribute 2000 rpm difference in spin based on strike alone.

300 RPM difference between the two clubs if you compared M1 with weight in front to M2 is definitely not worth the $100 price difference for the majority of golfers, which is the intended audience of the reviews. Hes not reviewing these clubs to appeal to tour pros who are dialing their spin within a couple hundred RPMs.

He ended the comparison by stating that unless you are really concerned with fine tuning 200 RPMs, the M2 will be fine for most. He never said there would be no reason to buy the M1.

 

I disagree with your comparison with AWD vehicles. Whether or not a car has AWD can greatly change how the car handles in inclement weather, wet roads, off roading, etc. Not having AWD in the snow might make the vehicle get stuck and unusable. Having the adjustable weight in the front or the back of the club wont make the club unusuable, you could give a PGA player and any amateur an M1 with the weight in any position and the M2, and they would be able to use both clubs. The location of the weight doesnt make the club unusable if you are a weight forward player and the weight is in the back. 

AWD is something on a car that greatly impacts the locations and environments that you can operate the vehicle. Having a weight system vs not having a weight system does very little in terms of club performance and usability, which is why I dont think the AWD is a valid comparison

  

[UlyssesSky]

19 minutes ago, klineka said:

In the review video, he said, "When the weight of the M1 is dressed up to look like the M2, they are the same.. I dont see why anyone would spend more for the M1" So he was aware that he was testing them with as close to identical setups as he could get.

He also acknowledged in the video that if you are a very consistent ball striker or are very desperate to lower your spin, then the M1 could help. There is a very small subset of people that strike the ball consistently enough to where that would even apply.

 

  

Only that's not the only point he was making..

He did another video (indoors) together with James Pickard (and others, iirc) where they again where hitting the M2 and an M1 set up to play like the M2. Pickard was hitting his shots slightly left (not "oob left", more "left-semi left" and had a tiny bit too much spin (like upper 2000s/low 3000s). 
This would have been the perfect occasion to see if the moveable weights could help an experienced player in such a situation. But he only kept pointing out how similar the two drivers performed.

And the thing I (and I guess Tailor-made as well) don't like is not pointing out that the M1 doesn't make too much sense for the average player, but making it look like Taylormade was deliberately trying to trick people into buying a more expensive driver that doesn't do anything the cheaper version can't.

Taylormade didn't like it because it (potentially) hurt their sales, I didn't like it because he obviously was trying to get people to believe he would "protect" them from false claims by manufacturers when he was actually just trying to sharpen his own profile on Taylormade's expense to help his own business (no, I'm in no way affiliated with Taylormade, I just don't like it when people do something like that).

 

 

[klineka]

2 hours ago, UlyssesSky said:

Taylormade didn't like it because it (potentially) hurt their sales, I didn't like it because he obviously was trying to get people to believe he would "protect" them from false claims by manufacturers when he was actually just trying to sharpen his own profile on Taylormade's expense to help his own business (no, I'm in no way affiliated with Taylormade, I just don't like it when people do something like that).

Let me get this straight. You didnt like his video because he told you that the M2 performs just as good as the M1 when configured the same way, which could save you, as the consumer, money? As a consumer I want someone to protect me from false claims by manufacturers. I want someone with more experience, knowledge, and technology (launch monitors) to let me know when a manufacturer's claim is accurate and when its just a gimmick. 

[Lihu]

This topic/conversation reminds me of the time Mark had a huge Mizuno bag in the background in every one of his videos. 

Note the title of the video with "The Best Golf Irons of 2012" and, of course, the three Mizuno bags in the background. I picture those being replaced by Titleist Bags. Yeah, not biased or anything?

 

 

 

55 gram senior flex for me. . .

[klineka]

23 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This topic/conversation reminds me of the time Mark had a huge Mizuno bag in the background in every one of his videos. 

Note the title of the video with "The Best Golf Irons of 2012" and, of course, the three Mizuno bags in the background. I picture those being replaced by Titleist Bags. Yeah, not biased or anything?

 

 

 

55 gram senior flex for me. . .

Also note the massive Callaway pictures... and the content of that video for the best irons isnt even Crossfields opinion, those were voted on by his followers so not much bias there... Plus at the Quest golf academy where Rick Shiels and Peter Finch film and work, are tons of staff bags with clubs in them that are in numerous of their videos yet I dont see bias from them... Simply having a staff bag or two in a video doesnt mean much IMO.