PGA Championship Rules Question

[wildernessroad]

I have a question about a situation I observed during Sunday's round at the PGA Championship.  On the 5th hole, Kevin Chappell hooked his drive left.  It hit a tree, bounced off the concrete cart path, over a green fence,into a porta-john area, and lodged under a porta-john.  A rules official arrived before Kevin and entered the biffy area to locate the ball.  After Kevin arrived, together they determined where it crossed the green fence.  There was some moderately heated disagreement on the part of Chappell as to how to proceed, but eventually they determined the nearest point of relief (NPR) that cleared his back swing from the fence AND gave him line of sight relief from a bend in the fence that was between Kevin and the green.  (There were also lots of trees in this area that would prohibit Chappell from hitting a shot directly at the green from the NPR.) 

From the NPR, Kevin marked a 1 club length spot further away from the fence, no nearer the hole.  This area was considered "rough" but quite trampled.  The ground in this area sloped further away from the fence toward the concrete cart path.  Kevin took a drop and the ball rolled just beyond the 1 club length spot, but came to rest nearer the hole, so he picked it up to re-drop.  Everything seemed correct up to this point... and here is where my question comes in. 

Upon taking his second drop, the ball again rolled slowly toward and onto the cart path and was still moving (moving closer to the hole) when the official reached down and picked it up (while it was still moving.)  Kevin initially made a hesitating verbal and physical motion as the official did this, but proceeded to simply place the ball where the 2nd drop first hit the ground, and played his shot from there. 

My question:  The ball that the official picked up had not yet gone two clublengths beyond where it first hit the ground.  It was still moving on the cart path and conceivably could have hit an imperfection and rolled back and stopped on the cart path no nearer to the hole and yet still within two clublengths of the drop.  Shouldn't the official have waited until it stopped before picking it up?  If the situation I just described had happened, wouldn't the ball be "in play," (having found complete relief from the fence,) and now subject to another drop for relief from the cart path, potentially getting a drop location another 3 club lengths on the other side of the cart path (with the 2 club length roll)?  This could have given Kevin a clear shot to the green on better grass.  Thoughts?

[iacas]

Without video, we're relying on your statements.

One small point… a ball is "in play" as soon as it is dropped, whether it's a valid drop or not.

[wildernessroad]

With or without video... real or hypothetical... my question still focuses around whether or not it's ok for an official (or caddie or player or anyone) to pick up a moving ball in a drop situation as described.  I know I've seen caddies catch a moving ball before it rolls into a water hazard on a drop, but this scenario did not involve a water hazard.  Here's a brief article about the situation... without many details: https://www.stltoday.com/sports/golf/potty-shot-highlights-crazy-happenings-at-pga-championship/article_c44f48c9-2a71-5e2b-bf3a-872238498dfb.html

 

[iacas]

My point remains that on TV things can look different than they are. Maybe it had already rolled two club lengths. Maybe it had rolled forward of the point and wasn't going to go back the other way. We don't know, and we don't even have a video to judge for ourselves, or know what we're talking about.

[wildernessroad]

This isn't from on tv... I was standing right there... the closest person to the situation.  I'm just trying to explain the situation and ask if anyone knows if it is ok to pick a moving ball up like that.  The ball was maybe 2-3 feet from where it hit the ground on the drop, but it was definitely still moving on the cart path.  Kevin said something like "Wwwait!" as the official picked it up, but he also seemed frustrated to even argue any more with the official because they had already been going back and forth in trying to determine the NPR.  So Kevin ended up punching out across the fairway and wound up in more trouble by a covered drinking fountain.  He got a bogey.  Anyway, whether you believe my first-hand account or not doesn't matter... I was simply wondering about procedure in a case like this.  Thanks.

[ColinL]

The answer to your question about the referee stopping the moving ball lies in Decision 20-2c/4

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-20,d20-2c-4

The ball as you will see should have already rolled into one of the positions requiring a re-drop or placing and it should be clear that it could not roll back.  In this instance, the referee may have judged that the ball had already rolled more than 2 club lengths and could not return;  he may have been a bit premature in stopping the ball;  hIs concept of 2 clublengths might be different from yours or just estimated from a different perspective.  It doesn't matter much.   The basic answer is yes, he was ok to stop the player's ball while it was moving when it had gone more than 2 clublengths and evidently could not return.

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by ColinL

[ColinL]

7 hours ago, wildernessroad said:

I have a question about a situation I observed during Sunday's round at the PGA Championship.  On the 5th hole, Kevin Chappell hooked his drive left.  It hit a tree, bounced off the concrete cart path, over a green fence,into a porta-john area, and lodged under a porta-john.  A rules official arrived before Kevin and entered the biffy area to locate the ball.  After Kevin arrived, together they determined where it crossed the green fence.  There was some moderately heated disagreement on the part of Chappell as to how to proceed, but eventually they determined the nearest point of relief (NPR) that cleared his back swing from the fence AND gave him line of sight relief from a bend in the fence that was between Kevin and the green.  (There were also lots of trees in this area that would prohibit Chappell from hitting a shot directly at the green from the NPR.) 

 

The bit I am not clear about is why from a ball lodged under a porta-john we jump to determing where the ball crossed the fence.  Can you clarify what the status of the area was?  The porta-john  must have been a TIO and also the fence. Were they being deemed to be the one TIO?

Edited August 14, 2018 by ColinL

[wildernessroad]

Thank you for this answer from Decision 20-2c/4.  That explains this situation well, and yes, the porta-john and fence were all part of a TIO restroom area set up for spectators.

In this instance, I would say that the rules official judged (prematurely in my opinion) that the ball was moving closer to the hole and would not return, so he picked it up for Kevin to place it.  It was clearly not more than 2 club lengths.  It was about 24-30 inches to the right of where it was dropped (facing the hole), and about 3-4 inches closer to the hole as it was slowly jiggling along the cart path toward the hole, but occasionally bouncing to the right.  If allowed to continue, it likely would have continued closer to the hole and not returned, but on concrete cart paths I've seen balls change directions quite drastically.

I think what surprised me the most was seeing the official stop the ball (at the displeasure of the player), instead of allowing the player or caddie to make that decision.  IF the ball DID jiggle/bounce back those few inches and come to rest on the cart path within 2 club lengths of the drop and no nearer the hole, I think Chappell would have gotten another drop for relief from the cart path, correct? (Or does complete relief from the TIO mean complete relief from all other relief situations?) If the NPR at that point was on the right side of the cart path, it would have been a huge break for Kevin who then would have had a chance to take a drop with a clear shot to the green (no tree obstructions from that point.)

I will add this... the rules official was very gentlemanly throughout the whole ordeal.  He was very patient with Kevin who was frustrated with his own play and the situation and who at one point very strongly stated to the official, "No, you are wrong here!"  But while Kevin was frustrated with the whole thing, he also maintained a sense of humor.  As he left, he said to the spectators, "Nice to meet you all again," as he had been hooking it frequently on Sunday.

[ColinL]

If a ball correctly dropped in taking relief from the TIO came to rest on an obstruction such as the path and did not require to be be re-dropped or placed under Rule 20-2c, the player could take relief from the path as a subsequent and separate action.  The determination  of the NPR from the TIO would not take account of the path - indeed, the NPR could be on the path.

I suggest we just have to accept that the referee's judgment was that the ball was going to roll more than 2 clublengths or already had and he was doing the sensible thing by stopping it.

[rehmwa]

I think the question is if someone (even an official) interferes with the drop, is Kevin entitled to a re-drop if he wants.

[wildernessroad]

14 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I think the question is if someone (even an official) interferes with the drop, is Kevin entitled to a re-drop if he wants.

I was wondering that, too.  I thought he might ask for a re-drop, but he didn't.  Kevin had already been wrestling with the official regarding the NPR, and after showing frustration at the official when he picked up Kevin's ball, Kevin seemed resigned to just quit the battle and do whatever the official said.  He may say otherwise, but that's how it came across standing next to him.

[Fourputt]

First of all, I think that the referee was wrong in touching a moving ball.  From the description, the ball was probably closer to the hole than the rules allowed, and appeared to the referee to be still moving in that direction, but that doesn't excuse him for touching a ball in play.  Had it been me, I would not have touched the ball period.  When it came to rest in a spot not allowed under the rules, I'd have instructed the player to place it where it first touched the course on the second drop.

When I was refereeing for the Colorado Golf Association, we were very specifically instructed to only interact with the players if asked a question, or if we actually observed a breach.  When I worked as marshal at a PGA Tour event, we were instructed to be as invisible as possible to the players, only interacting when they initiated the contact. 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Fourputt

[ColinL]

Back to Decision 20-2c/4.  

The player, his partner, his partner's caddie or someone else authorized by the player (e.g., an opponent or fellow-competitor) is permitted to stop a ball which has rolled into a position requiring a re-drop provided it is not going to go back.  I have seen a professional referee  stopping a dropped ball which would otherwise have headed way down a slope.  I have done it myself.  `I looked on it as helping the player concerned, and the "thank you" I got suggested that's how the player saw it too. You're really just applying the rules and  it's a timesaver as well.  Why should a referee not do what others are permitted to do? 

Interaction with  with players should also be to prevent breaches of the rules - such as playing a dropped ball which has rolled into a position which requires a re-drop.

I wonder if there is any other circumstance where a referee might stop a moving ball in play.  Can't think of one offhand.

 

I think the question is if someone (even an official) interferes with the drop, is Kevin entitled to a re-drop if he wants.

It isn't a question of the player being entitled to a re-drop because someone stops his ball once it rolls  more than  two club-lengths with no chance of its coming back.  By the time the ball is stopped the player is required to re-drop or place.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by ColinL

[Missouri Swede]

On 8/13/2018 at 8:58 PM, iacas said:

One small point… a ball is "in play" as soon as it is dropped, whether it's a valid drop or not.

 

3 minutes ago, ColinL said:

Back to Decision 20-2c/4.  

The player, his partner, his partner's caddie or someone else authorized by the player (e.g., an opponent or fellow-competitor) is permitted to stop a ball which has rolled into a position requiring a re-drop provided it is not going to go back.  I have seen a professional referee  stopping a dropped ball which would otherwise have headed way down a slope.  I have done it myself.  `I looked on it as helping the player concerned, and the "thank you" I got suggested that's how the player saw it too. You're really just applying the rules and  it's a timesaver as well.  Why should a referee not do what others are permitted to do? 

Maybe I’m just missing it: Doesn’t the definition of referee specifically prohibit lifting a ball in play (rolling or not)?

Quote

A referee should not attend the flagstick, stand at or mark the position of the hole, or lift the ball or mark its position

 

[ColinL]

No, you're not missing anything other than that this is a recommendation.  It's not prohibited.

Edited August 15, 2018 by ColinL

[iacas]

@Fourputt, comparing yourself to a PGA Championship Rules Official is laughable, especially in your role as a marshal.

These are the guys that teach the rules seminars. They pretty much know what they’re doing.

[MacDutch]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Fourputt, comparing yourself to a PGA Championship Rules Official is laughable, especially in your role as a marshal.

These are the guys that teach the rules seminars. They pretty much know what they’re doing.

And they are human, they make mistakes too.

[Fourputt]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

@Fourputt, comparing yourself to a PGA Championship Rules Official is laughable, especially in your role as a marshal.

These are the guys that teach the rules seminars. They pretty much know what they’re doing.

I don't care much for your tone in this, Erik.  It's demeaning.  I was relating what I EXPERIENCED as a referee for my state golf association in state level tournaments (and it was essentially the same policy as when I marshaled for the Tour).  We didn't touch player's ball, period.  From the OP description, there was no reason in this case for the referee to do so.  I stand by my opinion that he should have let the player do the ball handling.  I've watched untold numbers of drops on TV and I've never seen the referee pick up a ball in a case where the ball wasn't well out of the allowed drop area.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Fourputt