Sweetens Cove #5: Strategy, Width, Angles, and Laying Up

[Moxley]

Interesting thread. I agree with the point that trying to hunt an angle from >200 yards out is unwise, but I wonder whether there is a point where it does become feasible. 

There are a few holes on my home course where I'll need to layup on a long par 4 because I've hit a poor tee shot.and there's a dip or something before the green. On these I'll normally try and pick a side to come in from with my layup, given i'll only be hitting a short iron. I can't say I've never found trees doing that, but equally the instances are rare, and the advantage of having an easy shot with my wedge seems worthwhile. 

[iacas]

 

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Thanks. The hazards and bunkers don't move!

[nevets88]

I find it extremely disconcerting that there are 878 myths before that. I thought this game was of Scottish origins not Greek. 😛

[HJJ003]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Good post. Could a centerline bunker/hazard potentially change this? Does it make sense to layup for an angle if you can’t carry the hazard or can’t reach the green in two on a par 5? I know you want to be as close to the hole as possible just wasn’t sure if one would benefit from trying to lay up for a good angle if they don’t sacrifice too much yardage.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, HJJ003 said:

Good post. Could a centerline bunker/hazard potentially change this? Does it make sense to layup for an angle if you can’t carry the hazard or can’t reach the green in two on a par 5? I know you want to be as close to the hole as possible just wasn’t sure if one would benefit from trying to lay up for a good angle if they don’t sacrifice too much yardage.

Depends. If there's a lot of space to one side or the other, you're often best going that way. If you can lay up just short of it with a 3-wood (or shorter if you still have a wedge or something in), go for it. If the bunker is tiny and laying back short adds too many clubs, it might still be a driver, even if there's not space to the left or right, and you might have to deal with some of the balls ending up in the bunker.

[iacas]

Does Approach Angle Matter? – Golf Stat Pro

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This is a popular topic! Does the angle to the green matter? You can’t go 4 minutes on a broadcast without hearing about a player having a great angle. The pin is tucked left? Standard golf s…

Quote

Now on to the million dollar question: Where is the best place to approach a tucked pin from? The answer in almost all situations is “the middle of the fairway”. Having the better angle generally doesn’t matter and there are many instances where what is typically considered the “ideal” angle, results in the lowest strokes gained.

I think that, for amateurs who have to bounce the ball onto the green, angles can matter a bit. But as we know, angles don't matter for better players. Or players on softer courses, even if they're not great players.

[DeadMan]

On 12/23/2018 at 6:34 PM, iacas said:

Does Approach Angle Matter? – Golf Stat Pro

---

This is a popular topic! Does the angle to the green matter? You can’t go 4 minutes on a broadcast without hearing about a player having a great angle. The pin is tucked left? Standard golf s…

It would be interesting to see this analysis beyond the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour doesn't really play many courses that have "width and angles" like GCA junkies promote. 

Won't be as robust, but if you could use data from only Erin Hills, Shinnecock, Aronimink, Kapalua, and Riveria, it would be interesting to see if this changed.

[iacas]

9 hours ago, DeadMan said:

It would be interesting to see this analysis beyond the PGA Tour. The PGA Tour doesn't really play many courses that have "width and angles" like GCA junkies promote. 

Won't be as robust, but if you could use data from only Erin Hills, Shinnecock, Aronimink, Kapalua, and Riveria, it would be interesting to see if this changed.

I don’t believe it will change much at all. You’re welcome to mess with the filters though.

PGA Tour fairways are not super skinny IMO.

[DeadMan]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I don’t believe it will change much at all. You’re welcome to mess with the filters though.

PGA Tour fairways are not super skinny IMO.

Ah, I didn't see that you could limit it to tournaments last night when I read this. Went through 3 of the courses I mentioned.

Riveria:

Kapalua:

Aronimink:

So at Riveria, there was an advantage to being on the correct side. But it's only a small one. At Aronimink and Kapalua, there was no advantage. And in fact, there was advantage to being on the wrong side of the fairway.

[cutchemist42]

Came across this randomly when searching about Sweetens Cove.

I can appreciate that a hole and tee position have a likely optimal path for amateurs who are rolling the ball into greens sometimes. Also might depend on how firm a course plays.

At the same time, I'm choosing my teeclub based on my best balance of distance vs dispersion to avoid a lost ball penalty. On any given hole I will just acknowledge that my shot dispersion will lead to the best spot or worst spot sometimes and I know holes at my course where that shot distribution screws me haha. Dont think many have a shot dispersion with a driver that is so tight that they can pick their spots.

That being said, width and angles actually applies to the golf game I'm currently into, TGC2019. The fandom does complain that ball spin on landing is not accurate and even wedges have an inaccurate roll distance to account for. On long irons you do have to account for 10-17 yards of roll. However, dispersion with the clubs is pretty tight so it's very easy to apply the strategy in the game.

So it's weird but I appreciate width and angles more in a video game than I do in real life.

[rvanculin]

I have played this hole, and I will say that the angles do matter on this particular hole. If you could see the green, it has 3 distinct areas where Andy places the pin positions. The day I played, there was a pin in the 'A' section and the 'C' section of Andy's video. If the flag is in 'C', you ideally need to leave yourself a full wedge or be past the lion's mouth bunker if going for the green. If it's in 'A', you want to be short left. If the hole is in 'B', you might just want to leave a full wedge. You never want to be right of this green.

There is a podcast or video, can't remember which, where Andy was talking about playing with ZB and Andy was on the "correct" side of the fairway, and Zac on the "incorrect" as the angles go. Andy said even though Zac was in the fairway, he could not hold the green. He said he dropped ball after ball and couldn't get one to stay on the green.

Also, I haven't finished Erik's book yet, but to the gui who said a Tour pro and Mid Am qualifier don't understand course strategy, I hope I can get to your level of enlightenment.