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Bunker Question

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So my ball came to rest on top of a leaf inside of a bunker. I wasn’t sure if I had to hit it as it lied or not. So I marked the ball with a tee and removed the leaf, moving the ball with it. Because I marked it, I replaced the ball. I was wondering if this is the correct or if I did it incorrectly. (If this is incorrect, please explain how.) Thank You

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1 minute ago, ICJ said:

So my ball came to rest on top of a leaf inside of a bunker. I wasn’t sure if I had to hit it as it lied or not. So I marked the ball with a tee and removed the leaf, moving the ball with it. Because I marked it, I replaced the ball. I was wondering if this is the correct or if I did it incorrectly. (If this is incorrect, please explain how.) Thank You

You can move a loose impediment in the bunker these days, but not if your ball moves (and not by marking and replacing).

If your ball moves when removing a loose impediment anywhere but the putting green or the teeing area, you incur a one-stroke penalty.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=1

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On 2/6/2019 at 9:19 PM, iacas said:

You can move a loose impediment in the bunker these days, but not if your ball moves (and not by marking and replacing).

If your ball moves when removing a loose impediment anywhere but the putting green or the teeing area, you incur a one-stroke penalty.

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=15&subrulenum=1

I would expect that many might call this just another example that the rules of golf are just too strict. The truth is that bad breaks are a part of the game; the "rub of the green" if you will. If you are playing competitively (in a tournament or competitively with your friends) then play by the rules. If it's a practice round, then move the ball because this isn't a shot you should be "practicing".

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6 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

I would expect that many might call this just another example that the rules of golf are just too strict. The truth is that bad breaks are a part of the game; the "rub of the green" if you will. If you are playing competitively (in a tournament or competitively with your friends) then play by the rules. If it's a practice round, then move the ball because this isn't a shot you should be "practicing".

Why wouldn’t you practice a shot that you very well might encounter on the course?  Especially something as simple and benign as that...with no worry about injury, or damaging a club.

Play the shot and revel in the result of having done so.  :-)

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21 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

I would expect that many might call this just another example that the rules of golf are just too strict. The truth is that bad breaks are a part of the game; the "rub of the green" if you will. If you are playing competitively (in a tournament or competitively with your friends) then play by the rules. If it's a practice round, then move the ball because this isn't a shot you should be "practicing".

Uhhh, no. If that’s an example to you… I do not even know what to tell you.

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2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Why wouldn’t you practice a shot that you very well might encounter on the course?  Especially something as simple and benign as that...with no worry about injury, or damaging a club.

Play the shot and revel in the result of having done so.  :-)

This should not qualify for a shot you very well might encounter on the course regularly, unless you play at a club that has a tree that constantly drops leaves in a specific bunker and in that case I'd expect that at some point the club would take down the tree. Yes, hit the shot if you think that this will be something that you wouldn't consider rare. But if you are out practicing and you run into something rare that makes you feel as if you have gotten a bad break, and something like this should be for most, then move the ball and practice the sand shot which you are much more likely to encounter. I've never seen a pile of leaves intentionally left next to a practice bunker for those who want to practice this shot.    

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Uhhh, no. If that’s an example to you… I do not even know what to tell you.

I didn't say it was an example to me. I said "many might call this just another example..."and that comes from many years of experience in dealing with club players if you get my drift.  Tough crowd out here.....

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29 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

The truth is that bad breaks are a part of the game

In which case the rules of the game should apply.  What are the chances of hitting a fairway and finding your ball in a divot?  But when it happens you still hit out of it.  Or you find your ball (not on the green) with a nice hunk of mud on it.  It happens.  

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37 minutes ago, Foot Wedge said:

In which case the rules of the game should apply.  What are the chances of hitting a fairway and finding your ball in a divot?  But when it happens you still hit out of it.  Or you find your ball (not on the green) with a nice hunk of mud on it.  It happens.  

Never said the rules shouldn't apply. In all cases one should play by the rules. My suggestion of moving the ball off the leaf, or out of any other bad break is for when one is out practicing so that one practices the shot one is more likely to encounter given it is a practice round. There are common shots one comes across and there are uncommon shots one comes across. It is pretty common to practice the common shots more than the uncommon ones and it's only a suggestion people. No where did I say not to take the stroke for the unplayable if one does opt for the unplayable. Like I said, tough crowd out here.... 

Edited by HonestyPolicy
wording

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6 minutes ago, HonestyPolicy said:

No where did I say not to take the stroke for the unplayable if one does opt for the unplayable.

:hmm:

Why would you opt for an unplayable for your ball sitting on a leaf in a bunker?

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17 minutes ago, klineka said:

:hmm:

Why would you opt for an unplayable for your ball sitting on a leaf in a bunker?

Try dat!

Unless it’s a 2’ banana leaf, it’s not going to even have much impact on a normal “explosion” type bunker shot.  Maybe a tad less spin on the ball, but beyond that...

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38 minutes ago, klineka said:

:hmm:

Why would you opt for an unplayable for your ball sitting on a leaf in a bunker?

I believe some might think it could affect the results of their shot  but it might not as Dave in FL points out. It would of course depend on many factors, the leaf size, it's position, the bunker itself (not all bunkers are near the green and not all bunkers shots are explosion shots), club selection, if you are a good bunker player or not, and many other factors. It is the players choice on how to proceed under the rules on every shot. If one decides to move the leaf and the ball moves, there is a penalty stroke as was posted correctly by iacas (see 2nd posting). Yes playing the ball as it lies is one option. Taking an unplayable in the bunker is another. Going back to the point where the previous ball was hit, dropping and hitting again is another. Their is a procedure and a risk/reward for each choice. Apparently the OP thought that the leaf would impact his shot so he chose to move it. That's where this all started.   

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2 hours ago, HonestyPolicy said:

Never said the rules shouldn't apply. In all cases one should play by the rules. My suggestion of moving the ball off the leaf, or out of any other bad break is for when one is out practicing so that one practices the shot one is more likely to encounter given it is a practice round. There are common shots one comes across and there are uncommon shots one comes across. It is pretty common to practice the common shots more than the uncommon ones and it's only a suggestion people. No where did I say not to take the stroke for the unplayable if one does opt for the unplayable. Like I said, tough crowd out here.... 

 

Not a tough crowd.... we are just golfers.  In particular, those of us who regularly participate in the Rules forum believe that the rules exist for a reason, and we believe in playing by those rules even in casual rounds (anything other than a declared "practice" round).  We do this in part because we want our handicaps to be a s accurate as possible, and because most of us find he game more enjoyable when we test ourselves under the same rules and procedures every time we play. 

I play all of those shots by the rules because I don't want to be completely befuddled when I encounter them in tournament play.  I've played shots where I had to hit right through a twig more than once over the years - that's one where you really don't have any idea what might happen.  Playing through a leaf is insignificant. 

I've done it often in autumn when leaves are a constant issue,and regardless of whether the ball lies in grass or sand, it makes no real difference.  I've played shots where I couldn't even see the ball when I took my stance.   Sometimes you simply have to do it, even if it means that you can't make the shot you would have preferred if the object had not interfered. 

Even after the latest attempt at simplification, the rules are still biased toward playing the ball as it lies in the vast majority of awkward situations that you can encounter.  Doing so only when you are in a competition is giving away some advantage to those like me who are not intimidated or deterred by a difficult lie.  

 

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4 hours ago, HonestyPolicy said:

I didn't say it was an example to me. I said "many might call this just another example..."and that comes from many years of experience in dealing with club players if you get my drift.  Tough crowd out here.....

I was using the general "you."

My argument to those people would be that they're wimpy, namby pamby man-children who don't play real golf if they think that is an example of the Rules being "too strict" or something.

3 hours ago, HonestyPolicy said:

I believe some might think it could affect the results of their shot  but it might not as Dave in FL points out. It would of course depend on many factors, the leaf size, it's position, the bunker itself (not all bunkers are near the green and not all bunkers shots are explosion shots), club selection, if you are a good bunker player or not, and many other factors. It is the players choice on how to proceed under the rules on every shot. If one decides to move the leaf and the ball moves, there is a penalty stroke as was posted correctly by iacas (see 2nd posting). Yes playing the ball as it lies is one option. Taking an unplayable in the bunker is another. Going back to the point where the previous ball was hit, dropping and hitting again is another. Their is a procedure and a risk/reward for each choice. Apparently the OP thought that the leaf would impact his shot so he chose to move it. That's where this all started.   

I think the OP just thought he got to remove loose impediments even if the ball was sitting on top of it. I don't think he even got to the point of assessing whether it would affect his shot or not.

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On 2/20/2019 at 12:19 PM, Fourputt said:

Not a tough crowd.... we are just golfers.  In particular, those of us who regularly participate in the Rules forum believe that the rules exist for a reason, and we believe in playing by those rules even in casual rounds (anything other than a declared "practice" round).  We do this in part because we want our handicaps to be a s accurate as possible, and because most of us find he game more enjoyable when we test ourselves under the same rules and procedures every time we play. 

I play all of those shots by the rules because I don't want to be completely befuddled when I encounter them in tournament play.  I've played shots where I had to hit right through a twig more than once over the years - that's one where you really don't have any idea what might happen.  Playing through a leaf is insignificant. 

I've done it often in autumn when leaves are a constant issue,and regardless of whether the ball lies in grass or sand, it makes no real difference.  I've played shots where I couldn't even see the ball when I took my stance.   Sometimes you simply have to do it, even if it means that you can't make the shot you would have preferred if the object had not interfered. 

Even after the latest attempt at simplification, the rules are still biased toward playing the ball as it lies in the vast majority of awkward situations that you can encounter.  Doing so only when you are in a competition is giving away some advantage to those like me who are not intimidated or deterred by a difficult lie.  

 

The decision as to whether something is insignificant or not, lies with the player. If you think it is insignificant, then it is to you, but it may be different for others. I can not count the times I've seen people removing leaves from in and around their ball. Obviously the need to remove the leaves shows that there is some level of significance to those leaves being on or near their ball. As I said, always play by the rules, I do not profess not to, ever. So we agree there, as we should. But if one decides to move the ball so that he can remove the leaf from under it, for whatever reason, it is his decision to make, and he can move the ball if he chooses, and he must then proceed by the rules of golf (take the penalty) and post his score. That's the rules. If he decides not to take the penalty for what ever reason, then he has not played his round by the rules of golf and so he must not post his score.

Now just so you know, I am not suggesting that anyone not play by the rules regularly so that they can avoid posting scores. But I can't count the times I've seen people use "mulligans", or move the ball when the course was not under winter rules, and some just plainly refusing to follow rules, yet then posting their score. 

Over the years it has been my job to support these members. I wish I had a dollar for every time members were  complaining to me that they aren't competitive in net events. "Well gee, why do you think that is Mr Vanity Handicapper? You're posting scores that are lower than they should be because you aren't playing by the rules and then when handicap competition happens you can't compete." 

And so to wrap this up, at the club level it is a fine line we walk between encouraging people to enjoy the game and upholding the rules, but we must do both. Anyone who does just one or the other does not promote the game properly. My approach, which has not earned me any accolades, but has kept me out of arguments, is to provide the options within the rules, and then point out what happens if one violates the rules. All I was trying to do was point out to the OP here that he has choices.

Peace.

 

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On 2/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, iacas said:

My argument to those people would be that they're wimpy, namby pamby man-children who don't play real golf if they think that is an example of the Rules being "too strict" or something.

I think the OP just thought he got to remove loose impediments even if the ball was sitting on top of it. I don't think he even got to the point of assessing whether it would affect his shot or not.

Love the first sentence and I totally agree. Unfortunately the poor club pros face the wimpy, namby pamby man-children (and woman-children) who don't play real golf every day with their whinny complaints about how unfair everything is for them and how the rules are too strict. (As a side note what do you think of Webb's comments this weekend? Never mind I'm sure there's a post on it already going..) Hey, don't get me wrong, most do play by the rules and don't complain. But the few who don't, consume lots of time and sometimes influence others to behave the same way and when you get 10 or more of these types in the same club.......let's just say people in control need to understand that when exceptions are made, soon everyone else wants exceptions, and next thing you know there are no rules. So I guess my comment about some saying this was an example of the rules being  "too strict" was a tongue in cheek comment on my part reflecting what I've seen as an increasing phenomenon over the years to challenge and sometime intentionally violate the rules. It has been frustrating for me upholding the rules while I watch others in the same position as me make unauthorized exceptions.

Short story: The owner of a club played in club champion and won by 1 stroke. Upon inspection of his bag by another player he was found to have too many clubs which he admitted he had discovered himself on the turn. Both he and the guy who finished second left the decision on how to handle it up to me as I was the committee on this event for all practical purposes since no one else volunteered to help me. My response was that it wasn't up to me, and that the rules were clear he was to be assessed a 4 stroke penalty, 2 strokes on each of the first two holes. He decided not to accept the penalty and defiantly handed in his card without the extra strokes, causing the committee (me) to have to DQ him. Needless to say the rest of the season was not fun.  

So to wrap up, there are those out there that will complain the "rules are too strict" and even try to violate them without penalty. It is our job as their peers, under peer review, to exert actions necessary to shut that down (such as you suggest with mampy, pamby, etc, etc). It is then and only then that the system works and the "too strict" comments reduce or better yet are eliminated. 

Peace.

   

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7 hours ago, HonestyPolicy said:

The decision as to whether something is insignificant or not, lies with the player. If you think it is insignificant, then it is to you, but it may be different for others. I can not count the times I've seen people removing leaves from in and around their ball. Obviously the need to remove the leaves shows that there is some level of significance to those leaves being on or near their ball. As I said, always play by the rules, I do not profess not to, ever. So we agree there, as we should. But if one decides to move the ball so that he can remove the leaf from under it, for whatever reason, it is his decision to make, and he can move the ball if he chooses, and he must then proceed by the rules of golf (take the penalty) and post his score. That's the rules. If he decides not to take the penalty for what ever reason, then he has not played his round by the rules of golf and so he must not post his score.

 

 

In the US, that is absolutely not true. 

That is a single hole not played by the Rules. For posting purposes, on that hole, he’d post par+ any cap strokes he got. 

As long as a player has 13 holes in an 18 hole round that he played by the Rules, he posts that score. Even in a DQ round. 

 

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14 hours ago, Augster said:

In the US, that is absolutely not true. 

That is a single hole not played by the Rules. For posting purposes, on that hole, he’d post par+ any cap strokes he got. 

As long as a player has 13 holes in an 18 hole round that he played by the Rules, he posts that score. Even in a DQ round. 

 

Yes that it true, my mistake for not specifying that not following the rules for just a single hole would not cause a score to not be posted. Yes, Section 4 of the USGA handicap manual does come into play there. In my zeal I inadvertently skipped over that fact and thank you for pointing it out.  I should have said ".....then he has not played his round by the rules of golf, and if the rules of golf were not followed for enough holes, he must not post his score."

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