Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
Note: This thread is 4261 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Moderator
Posted
[URL]http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2014/08/fitness-friday-think-twice-bef.html[/URL] [Quote]Applying ice to injured tissue causes blood vessels near the injury to constrict and shut off the blood flow that brings in the healing cells of inflammation," Mirkin recently wrote in a research paper. Because blood vessels do not open for many hours after ice is applied, decreased blood flow can cause tissue damage or permanent impairment, he wrote. Inflammation, pain and swelling are part of the body's natural process to treat soft- tissue injuries and limit use of the injured area. If there's no swelling or pain, what's stopping you from doing further damage?[/Quote]

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
I don't get it.. The quote above is in the beginning of the article. Then he says in the end: "Even Mirkin says ice is OK if used sparingly for short periods right after the injury occurs. "You could apply the ice for up to 10 minutes, remove it for 20 minutes, and repeat the 10-minute application once or twice," he wrote" I'm confused now as to what is he calling for? Should people not ice or should they ice sparingly, and if icing doesn't help the recovery then why do so sparingly anyway? I will mention that big time sports to this day use ice for the injured, and I will defer to them as they pay the big money to the trainer an doctors to take care of their athletes.. What I would like to see is some sort of case studies detailing out the differences in healing and other hints between ice use and lack of use! Interesting article though!

:adams: / :tmade: / :edel: / :aimpoint: / :ecco: / :bushnell: / :gamegolf: / 

Eyad

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

I will mention that big time sports to this day use ice for the injured, and I will defer to them as they pay the big money to the trainer an doctors to take care of their athletes..

What I would like to see is some sort of case studies detailing out the differences in healing and other hints between ice use and lack of use!

Interesting article though!

Yet there were a lot of people who believed that eating fat makes you fat, yet it is more complicated than that. Basically, just because something is a standard doesn't make it correct.

I can understand the premise behind it. I know in another similar situation, were athletes take cold/ice baths to promote blood flow to the extremities to help speed up recovery. Yet that is a near full body immersion into a cold environment. They are talking like 10-15 minutes in an ice bath, sometimes it might just be cold water with no ice, they are talking about temperatures around 50-70 degrees. Not sitting ice on a localized area, which would be up to 30 degrees colder than a ice bath.

I think long term icing could be detrimental. Having freezing temperatures exposed to a isolated location could promote the constricting of blood vessels. Bellow is some information on frostbite.

Quote:
  • In conditions of prolonged cold exposure, the body sends signals to the blood vessels in the arms and legs telling them to constrict (narrow). By slowing blood flow to the skin, the body is able to send more blood to the vital organs, supplying them with critical nutrients, while also preventing a further decrease in internal body temperature by exposing less blood to the outside cold.

Matt Dougherty, P.E.
 fasdfa dfdsaf 

What's in My Bag
Driver; :pxg: 0311 Gen 5,  3-Wood: 
:titleist: 917h3 ,  Hybrid:  :titleist: 915 2-Hybrid,  Irons: Sub 70 TAIII Fordged
Wedges: :edel: (52, 56, 60),  Putter: :edel:,  Ball: :snell: MTB,  Shoe: :true_linkswear:,  Rangfinder: :leupold:
Bag: :ping:

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted

Is there an epidemic of people icing down injuries that have no inflammation or pain?

Because the key sentence in that quote was " If there's no swelling or pain, what's stopping you from doing further damage?"

Who ices those injuries? For the first 24 hours or so, a regiment of icing works well to reduce swelling and pain, then you apply light heat to promote blood flow/healing.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
Posted
I can understand the premise behind it. I know in another similar situation, were athletes take cold/ice baths to promote blood flow to the extremities to help speed up recovery. Yet that is a near full body immersion into a cold environment. They are talking like 10-15 minutes in an ice bath, sometimes it might just be cold water with no ice, they are talking about temperatures around 50-70 degrees. Not sitting ice on a localized area, which would be up to 30 degrees colder than a ice bath.

Doesn't freezing cause your blood vessels to constrict, and your blood to stay concentrated around your core (basically to keep your vital organs functioning)? I thought an ice bath was just a total body application of ice to alleviate soreness? If only there were a professional sports trainer here that could chime in... [quote name="iacas" url="/t/76578/icing-down-an-injury-may-be-harmful#post_1041442"][COLOR=181818]Who ices those injuries? For the first 24 hours or so, a regiment of icing works well to reduce swelling and pain, then you apply light heat to promote blood flow/healing.[/COLOR] [/quote] I think that's what the article is trying to say, that icing down the swelling could be a bad thing. From the article, the swelling is the body's natural reaction to injury, so icing it down inhibits that action.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Posted
I think that's what the article is trying to say, that icing down the swelling could be a bad thing. From the article, the swelling is the body's natural reaction to injury, so icing it down inhibits that action.

That's my point: you ice to reduce swelling and pain. Swelling isn't necessarily and is probably even rarely "increased blood flow" per se. Swelling and pain simply help to stiffen the joint or area, and pain makes you stop using it, so you don't further injure it.

A day of reduced swelling and pain isn't going to do anything to slow down your body's ability to respond and repair. Then you add heat lightly to warm it and increase blood flow.

But you can't ignore the positive benefits of ice - reduction of swelling and pain, particularly the latter. Even if it slightly slows healing, reducing pain is often important.

P.S. You could take medication, but I and others prefer to let our bodies do as much naturally as possible. And one of my degrees is in medicinal chemistry… :)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Hmmm. So we let the body's natural reaction to insult go unchecked because otherwise we'll do some damage? Perhaps, therefore, people should leave well alone when someone has a galloping, systemic infection? Let their rising body temperature, literally, cook their brain and the body's defenses will obviously deal with the bug causing it? That must be the problem in West Africa just now - people are interfering with the body's natural reaction to an insult.

Seriously, there's enough evidence that icing is beneficial to plenty of injuries and all injuries involve an inflammatory reaction and, therefore, swelling of some magnitude. Sounds like a job for common sense - don't leave ice on for too long at any one time; after all, eukaryotic cells generally haven't evolved to function at ~0°C.

Home Course: Wollaton Park GC, Nottingham, U.K.

Ping G400, 9°, Alta CB 55S | Ping G400, 14°, Alta CB 65S | Adams Pro Dhy 18°, 21°, 24°, KBS Hybrid S | Ping S55 5-PW, TT DGS300 | Vokey 252-08, DGS200 | Vokey 256-10 (bent to 58°), DGS200 | Ping Sigma G Anser, 34" | Vice Pro Plus

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted
Every time I scroll past the title of this thread I smile. Standard response to any injury from any coach I ever knew was "D'ja ice it?" "Coach I broke my arm in two places in practice." "D'ja ice it?"

  • Moderator
Posted

This is one of those articles where the author is vague enough to cause confusion.  If you sprain and ankle, RICE is the therapy for immediate relief.  Compression is used later to control the joint and keep the joint safe from reinjury.

But tell me (author), how do I use compression on arthritis or SI joints, or disk issues?  Ice is an excellent pain reliever.  Using NSAIDs helps, but can also be kidney toxic.  After a workout, using ice will keep inflammation from happening, reduce pain and help recovery. Just ask any physical therapist or doctor.  After a PT session, they usually put cold compress or ice on the area where they are treating.

Heat is effective for other parts of therapy as is compression.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

My Swing Thread

boogielicious - Adjective describing the perfect surf wave

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

I have spent quite a bit of time in my colleges training room for various injuries and can say that icing an injury makes a big difference in recovery time even just to improve muscle recovery times (that is why pitches ice their arms after they pitch and to keep the pain down).  I'm not sure where the writer of that blog got their info but swelling of an injury can actually do more harm than good to the healing process.  The general purpose of the swelling of an injury such as a sprained ankle is to reduce movement in the injured area and that, along with the pain associated with it keeps you off it and prevents you from making the injury worse.  If the swelling gets too severe or continues for too long then the fluids in the swollen area will actually restrict the blood flow and can destroy the blood vessels in the area causing the recovery time to lengthen.  That is why most medical professionals will tell you to ice the injury to reduce that swelling and then use heat to increase the proper blood flow to the area which will heal the injury.

just because something is a "natural" reaction of the body does not mean it is still relevant or can be bettered by modern medicine.  The human body adapted over thousands of years to survive living in caves and getting chased down by predators where there probably wouldn't be ice to help an injury and continuing to move on a minor injury could cause that small sprain to permanently cripple you which would mean almost certain death

What's in the bag:
Taylormade R15 
Callaway X2Hot pro 3W
Callaway X2Hot pro 20* hybrid
Mizuno JPX900 Tour 4-PW
Cleveland RTX 2.0 50,54, and 58 degree wedges
Taylormade White Smoke putter


  • 1 month later...
Posted

This makes sense, and also happens to fit with some traditional, non-Western medical practices, such as in Chinese medicine, where usually soft-tissue injuries are treated with herbs or manipulations to increase blood flow.

Years ago I got tendonitis playing guitar.  The doctor just advised icing after playing.    It actually didn't do me any good and I had deterioration to the point I just stopped playing altogether for several years.

Swelling isn't really about immobilizing lymbs, it has to do with increased lymphatic activity taking away metabolic wastes from tissues that are healing.  The pain is mostly a side effect from that.   It's not some kind of magical signal to not use the limb (indeed, the natural response in animals is often to scratch or bite injuries).

Now days on strains I use Tiger Balm or Blue Emu Oil and a heating pad immediately.     I would only use ice on things like bruises, not strains.  For better pain relief I'll use something that dulls the sensation of pain, like kava or CBD (cannabidiol, a derivative of cannabis).


Note: This thread is 4261 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    Carl's Place
    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • The criticisms are starting already 🤣 U.S. Open pro criticizes Shinnecock green conditions: 'Bumpy' After playing his first practice round at the 2026 U.S. Open, Michael Kim offered a less-than-glowing review of Shinnecock's "bumpy" greens.   The sand, I don't care about that. If the greens didn't come back as well for latest aerification, that would be a bit of a blunder on Shinnecock I think.   
    • Well, if your frame of reference spins twice during the swing, then Bryson's ab/adduction is more like 780 degrees so there! (Yes I'm being silly, but not sure it's any sillier than what your pal Andy is doing...)
    • Update: Brandon Sorsby has decided to enter the NFL Supplemental Draft. He will not play for Texas Tech in the upcoming season.  From my perspective, I think he did the right thing. I hope he gets the correct help for his gambling addiction. I say the right thing, because I would be worried that the stress from all of this now and throughout the entire year would not be beneficial towards his mental health.  If an NFL team picks him up, then there really isn't any pressure for him to play immediately. He can work on himself and his game for the NFL.  From Texas Tech,  "Texas Tech will continue to provide the support and recovery resources Brendan requires on this journey. Furthermore, Texas Tech will not seek return of any amounts already paid to Brendan through his NIL agreements with the University," Campbell wrote. "We wish our best to Brendan, and we offer our prayers to him and his family as he chases his dreams at the next level. This has been an unbelievably painful experience for us all, but I know that his true, underlying character and lessons learned through this experience will ultimately bring him great success on the field of play and in life." Which, I also the right thing to do.   
    • So, something I noticed yesterday at the range. My eyes and visualization of what the ball needs to do is way off. I put up an alignment stick about 10 yards down range. My initial thought was, "Oh crap". Even while wearing prescription sunglasses, and I know I am hitting it towards the sun, I couldn't pick up where the ball was at all. 
    • Oh man. As you can see above, Manavian mocked me for not realizing they were getting the 130° from BOTH shoulders. Apparently, though, Manavian is also wrong, as Andy said I was lying when I cited what Manavian had written: The next thing Andy says that's both accurate and clearly stated will be the first. I replied to that post with something like: Tell Manavian who said "only counting the abduction/adduction of one shoulder rather than 2." One of the issues with “bad” information is that y’all can’t even get on the same page. You've not shown that Bryson has 130° range of motion in either shoulder separately P1 to P7. I’ve shown the numbers. You’ve name-called and just said “nuh uh” repeatedly. Did you see the AMG IG video? Of course you have. Wrapping your head around the distance the shoulder travels yet, Andy? Andy later commented to explain how he got his range of motion number (apologies to whoever @iacac and @icaca are on Instagram, who are going to be wondering just what in the hell they've gotten themselves into). Oh boy. Adding the numbers in one direction and then adding them again going back is not a "range" of motion. If I can bend my knees 140°, I don't claim to have 280° range of motion because I have two knees nor because I can also extend my knees 140° after bending them. Bryson (with a driver, again — I used his iron swing) abducts about 65° (and bends his elbow a ton) with the driver. Then he adducts 50… and then another 15°… to end up right back where he started. This is exactly the equivalent of saying that I bend my knees 140° and then straighten them, creating a range of 280°. It's so silly I don't even have much of a response. It falls down completely on its own. It doesn't need even a nudge.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.