How far do you hit your clubs?

[slodsm]

Lihu, my best results when I wipe my mind of trying to crush the freakin ball are almost too simplistic to sound right. I do a slow takeaway, when I drop my left heel and start rotation I just let my arms fall, turn my torso as hard as I can while almost limp wristing the club and gravity takes over at the appropriate time and slings it into the ball/ground. That's the best I can describe it, my mental effort is on address, takeaway, pause, and start rotation slowly and after that gravity and centrifical (god I can't remember how to spell that word) force take over and it's good for 170-175 5i. When I actually TRY to swing the club hard, "if" I happen to make proper contact you can take 20 yards off that.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by slodsm

Lihu, my best results when I wipe my mind of trying to crush the freakin ball are almost too simplistic to sound right. I do a slow takeaway, when I drop my left heel and start rotation I just let my arms fall, turn my torso as hard as I can while almost limp wristing the club and gravity takes over at the appropriate time and slings it into the ball/ground. That's the best I can describe it, my mental effort is on address, takeaway, pause, and start rotation slowly and after that gravity and centrifical (god I can't remember how to spell that word) force take over and it's good for 170-175 5i. When I actually TRY to swing the club hard, "if" I happen to make proper contact you can take 20 yards off that.

Interesting, I did notice that my swing went downhill (way downhill) after all this "force" training I have been attempting to do. I see a trend in the responses, stating to let gravity do the work.

How long do you pause at the top?

Thanks

[wadesworld]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Interesting, I did notice that my swing went downhill (way downhill) after all this "force" training I have been attempting to do. I see a trend in the responses, stating to let gravity do the work.

How long do you pause at the top?

Thanks

Lihu,

Not speaking for slodsm, but done properly, the pause at the top is not a forced pause, but a pause caused as the upward momentum peters out and gravity begins to pull the arm-club unit downwards.

Don't misunderstand me, the concepts being described take some work to incorporate, especially if you've been manipulating the club all your life (as I have).  Like any swing, it's easy to fall back into bad habits and find yourself in need of correction.  But the feeling you get when gravity and momentum are in control, you've got beautiful timing and a wonderful release is one of incredible power.  Study some more of Shawn Clement's videos and give some of his ideas a try.  It's certainly having a positive impact on me.

[ChrisGSZ]

Originally Posted by Lihu

I used a matlab (use matlab 7 or above) simulation (I am partial to matlab as opposed to mathematica), contributed on the matlab file exchange program.

http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/27212-animated-double-pendulum.

The parameters are as follows inside the invoked "double_pendulum_init.m":

phi1                = pi;

dtphi1              = 2;

phi2                = 2*pi;

dtphi2              = 4.5;

g                   = 9.81;

m1                  = 3; % this is the effective mass of the hand and wrist

m2                  = 0.25; % this is the mass of the club head, taking out the mass of the shaft

l1                  = .75; % arm length meters

l2                  = 1; % club length meters

duration            = 1.2; % swing time

fps                 = 100;

movie               = true;

This will give you a movie of a psuedo-golf swing, looks kind of like a swing. The PDF contains the equations of motion.

Thanks again for your help so far.

LIHU - Wow.... That's too advanced for me, and most other contributors I guess. I used Matlab when I was a prof, but now I'm retired I don't have the software... It's great that you understand the double pendulum - it's the source of around 80% of clubhead speed. Not many people know that....

[Lihu]

Lihu, Not speaking for slodsm, but done properly, the pause at the top is not a forced pause, but a pause caused as the upward momentum peters out and gravity begins to pull the arm-club unit downwards.   Don't misunderstand me, the concepts being described take some work to incorporate, especially if you've been manipulating the club all your life (as I have).  Like any swing, it's easy to fall back into bad habits and find yourself in need of correction.  But the feeling you get when gravity and momentum are in control, you've got beautiful timing and a wonderful release is one of incredible power.  Study some more of Shawn Clement's videos and give some of his ideas a try.  It's certainly having a positive impact on me.

Got it, thanks.

[Lihu]

I'll look forward to hearing how it goes. Remember, the reason the club is still so far behind him when he makes that first move down is because he has maintained his wrist cock. That's how you create "lag" in your swing thus creating club head speed which equates to power. When the timing is right, meaning the lower body, the upper body, and the release of the club come through at the proper time (not at the same time, the proper time), you will be amazed at the amount of club head speed you will generate with very little effort. Work on trying to make your swing as consistent as possible concentrating on good fundamentals. As I say on my [URL=http://golf-push-cart-1.com/golf-tips/][COLOR=0000FF] golf tips page [/COLOR][/URL] that I sent you to, there are many great players on tour and for the most part, they all swing the club a little differently. But there is one thing they all do, and that is, no matter how they get it done, they do it time after time after time. They swing the club consistently the same. Remember, it's a golf "swing", not a golf "hit". With a consistent swing, the ball should just get in the way.

The tree jig really keeps me doing the same thing every time. If I swing a high shot, I do it the same every time. If low, every time. I am working on controlling the bottom of my swing. So far, I can control it to some degree. Improving the striking, but not sure if I added much power yet. Still merging this with the other two ideas.

[Lihu]

LIHU - Wow.... That's too advanced for me, and most other contributors I guess. I used Matlab when I was a prof, but now I'm retired I don't have the software... It's great that you understand the double pendulum - it's the source of around 80% of clubhead speed. Not many people know that....

Pretty neat simulation, and the equations look pretty much the same as the ones in your link. This also uses the built in Runga Kutta method in matlab. It really shows what you are saying. I have finally gotten a few good swings where they are effortless and yet feel powerful. As I turn my shoulders my wrists hinge naturally giving the club a trebuchet type of whipping motion. If I can maximize this whip, I think I will be able to get it. However, my timing is still not good enough to speed it up to desirable speeds yet. I am going to build up a fixture that limits my swing and swing path, but contains a hinge to allow me to measure and maximize the outer pendulum for that 80% power you are talking about. Thanks for your help. I will keep you posted and take some pictures of the fixture when done.

[Mfed]

Originally Posted by Lihu

The tree jig really keeps me doing the same thing every time. If I swing a high shot, I do it the same every time. If low, every time.

I am working on controlling the bottom of my swing. So far, I can control it to some degree. Improving the striking, but not sure if I added much power yet. Still merging this with the other two ideas.

Glad to hear that might be helping. Here's another idea for you which will also help you feel that move without hitting balls. This might be hard to explain, so bear with me.

First, find a two tiered area. For example, picture raised tee box (a 3 or 4 foot rise). Stand facing the rise (maybe a foot or two away from the bottom of the rise). Take a club, and take your set up (I find I get a better feel for this with my driver). The head of the club should be on the rise in front of you. Practice swinging the club so it swings up the hill and go to a full finish. This will also help you get a feel for that initail move that we talked about earlier. The swing is obviously going to be flatter than a normal swing, but what it will do is force you to get your right elbow to your side without releasing the club too early. It will be the only way you'll be able to swing the club up the hill. Remember to go to a full finish to get the best results. Let me know if there's anything you don't understand or that I didn't explain very well. Hope this also helps.

[slodsm]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Lihu,

Not speaking for slodsm, but done properly, the pause at the top is not a forced pause, but a pause caused as the upward momentum peters out and gravity begins to pull the arm-club unit downwards.

Don't misunderstand me, the concepts being described take some work to incorporate, especially if you've been manipulating the club all your life (as I have).  Like any swing, it's easy to fall back into bad habits and find yourself in need of correction.  But the feeling you get when gravity and momentum are in control, you've got beautiful timing and a wonderful release is one of incredible power.  Study some more of Shawn Clement's videos and give some of his ideas a try.  It's certainly having a positive impact on me.

Yep, it's not so much forced, just conscious. I have to count my way back, I reach the top of my backswing at 3, in the amount of time it takes that number to clear my head I then drop my heel and start my swing. I have to make myself do it because when I first started hacking at a ball with a club, I thought the transition from takeaway to swing would increase clubhead speed so I had already swung and by the time most people had finished the back swing. I did it that way for a good while because on the occasion I did actually hit the ball, good god it went for a mile (not in the direction I wanted it to but...) and I ingrained that crap into my head until I started taking lessons.

It was there so long now I have to do a 1-2-3 count on my takeaway to create the desired pause, feel the weight of the club head and then go.

[ORazor]

Originally Posted by amcquay

Driver: 220-240

3 wood: 210-220

5 wood: 190-200

4 iron: 180-185

5 iron: 175-180

6 iron: 165-170

7 iron: 150-160

8 iron: 140-150

9 iron: 120-130

PW (46*): 100-110

SW (54*): 75-100

My new irons just came in last Friday, so I've gone to the range a few times over the past two or three days for the sole purpose of getting these numbers. These are assuming I get a decent shot on the ball, which is easier said than done for me at this point :p

I think that these are my EXACT numbers.

[Lihu]

Glad to hear that might be helping. Here's another idea for you which will also help you feel that move without hitting balls. This might be hard to explain, so bear with me. First, find a two tiered area. For example, picture raised tee box (a 3 or 4 foot rise). Stand facing the rise (maybe a foot or two away from the bottom of the rise). Take a club, and take your set up (I find I get a better feel for this with my driver). The head of the club should be on the rise in front of you. Practice swinging the club so it swings up the hill and go to a full finish. This will also help you get a feel for that initail move that we talked about earlier. The swing is obviously going to be flatter than a normal swing, but what it will do is force you to get your right elbow to your side without releasing the club too early. It will be the only way you'll be able to swing the club up the hill. Remember to go to a full finish to get the best results. Let me know if there's anything you don't understand or that I didn't explain very well. Hope this also helps.

This week was a breakthrough, I made the changes to my swings to use more of a double pendulum and used the "tree" fixture to limit my body movement. My grip was very weak before using these new clubs because they felt more balanced with the weak grip. This was the main reason why my shots were so high and "weak". I rested three days from Monday, only hitting 100 balls per day half or less strokes. I went to the range today, and hit way more powerfully. The feeling is that there is power in reserve to hit much harder. Even though I only hit about one club longer today, it feels like there's plenty of power to spare. Maybe enough to hit another club longer. Thanks ChrisGSZ and Mfed.

[Mfed]

Originally Posted by Lihu

This week was a breakthrough, I made the changes to my swings to use more of a double pendulum and used the "tree" fixture to limit my body movement.

My grip was very weak before using these new clubs because they felt more balanced with the weak grip. This was the main reason why my shots were so high and "weak".

I rested three days from Monday, only hitting 100 balls per day half or less strokes.

I went to the range today, and hit way more powerfully. The feeling is that there is power in reserve to hit much harder. Even though I only hit about one club longer today, it feels like there's plenty of power to spare. Maybe enough to hit another club longer.

Thanks ChrisGSZ and Mfed.

That's great to hear! Just one word of caution. You say "the feeling is that there is more power in reserve to hit much "harder"". In my opinion, trying to do anything in golf "harder" doesn't work.

A better thought would be to do it "quicker".

For the longest time, my handicap fluctuated between 2 & 4. My game was fairly consistent. I would throw in an occasional 71-72, or 79-80, but for the most part, I was 74-77. Up until about 1 1/2 years ago, that was my game. About a year and a half ago, I started "taking something off" my swing. I remembered something Curtis Strange said a while ago. Speaking about touring pros, he said that "99% of touring pros swing at 80% of their capabilities 90% of the time" . My swing was sound enough to play at the level I did, which isn't bad, but I figured that was as good as it was going to get.

About a year and a half ago, I slowed down a little. Because golf is a game of timing, I found that by slowing everything down, I got the timing right more often. I started hitting more good crisp shots and really didn't lose much distance, and started to become more accurate. What it also did was make me realize that if I was always swinging at 100%, I was really limiting my options. If I was always swinging the club at 100%, and was in between yardages, my only viable option was to take more club and try to swing easy. But not being the sharpest knife in the draw, sometimes I would take less club and try to "jump" on it.  More often than not, I wouldnt hit it good. No wonder...if I 'm swinging at 100% of what I can control, then trying get a little "extra" out of a club requires me to swing at a speed I can't control.

When I say I slowed down, I slowed everything down. The timing is the same, it's just slower. So now when I need to get a little more out of a club, I'm able turn a little "quicker" and still maintain the timing of the swing. Most high handicappers, swing with their arms, and when I hear "harder", I think of trying to "muscle" it out there. Good players turn their hips and shoulders to swing the club. If you can maintain the timing, you would turn "quicker" not "harder" to geneate club head speed.

[Lihu]

That's great to hear! Just one word of caution. You say "the feeling is that there is more power in reserve to hit much "harder"". In my opinion, trying to do anything in golf "harder" doesn't work. A better thought would be to do it "quicker". For the longest time, my handicap fluctuated between 2 & 4. My game was fairly consistent. I would throw in an occasional 71-72, or 79-80, but for the most part, I was 74-77. Up until about 1 1/2 years ago, that was my game. About a year and a half ago, I started "taking something off" my swing. I remembered something Curtis Strange said a while ago. Speaking about touring pros, he said that [COLOR=FF0000]"99% of touring pros swing at 80% of their capabilities 90% of the time"[/COLOR]. My swing was sound enough to play at the level I did, which isn't bad, but I figured that was as good as it was going to get. When I say I slowed down, I slowed everything down. The timing is the same, it's just slower. So now when I need to get a little more out of a club, I'm able turn a little "quicker" and still maintain the timing of the swing. Most high handicappers, swing with their arms, and when I hear "harder", I think of trying to "muscle" it out there. Good players turn their hips and shoulders to swing the club. If you can maintain the timing, you would turn "quicker" not "harder" to geneate club head speed.

I actually have some idea what you are talking about. What I mean by power is velocity, what I should have said is more kinetic energy to the ball. My torso is turning slower than before, but I feel like I could move faster. My wrists whip the club around like a double pendulum as in the computer model. It feels like I can make that whipping motion much faster than in my current learning stage, but in any case it's really good enough now for my game. The main thing is that I am getting confidence with my clubs and hitting about a club further than before. Did well on the course this morning. I am going to play with my friends tomorrow morning. Let's see if I can do the same with onlookers, and later on with my swing coach. The best part is that this new swing seems to carry over to my driver, woods and hybrids with absolutely no extra learning effort. I still drive roughly the same distances as before, just with seemingly less effort. After almost 6 months of little confidence in hitting the irons, I am finally making a breakthrough. Thanks.

[Lihu]

Success. It feels good to "hit" a golf ball again with the irons. No hissing from the ball yet, but my distances are now good enough.

Thanks for everyone's help on this site

[Valleygolfer]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Success. It feels good to "hit" a golf ball again with the irons. No hissing from the ball yet, but my distances are now good enough.

Thanks for everyone's help on this site

I do love that hiss...

[cutshot878]

I'd be curious to know who has regular shafts and stiff shafts.  If you're hitting your 8 iron 160 with a regular shaft it might be time for a "stiff."  I believe you'll lose 10-15 yards with the stiffer shaft but be more accurate? Less dispersion. Tighter shot group.  I play stiff shafts in my irons. DG S300.  solid 8 iron shot is 150. 7 iron is 165, Although I can hit a drive 290.  I could probably hit my irons farther with a regular shaft. But accuracy is what you're looking for with irons. And woods for that matter. Fairways and GIR's.  Add a decent short game and you're breaking 80.

[jclark]

I have a feeling some people are not writing down averages but the farthest they ever hit it! I got a buddy that tells me he can hit his PW 160, but I have never seen him hit it 120.

[Dave H]

I'd be curious to know who has regular shafts and stiff shafts.  If you're hitting your 8 iron 160 with a regular shaft it might be time for a "stiff."  I believe you'll lose 10-15 yards with the stiffer shaft but be more accurate? Less dispersion. Tighter shot group.  I play stiff shafts in my irons. DG S300.  solid 8 iron shot is 150. 7 iron is 165, Although I can hit a drive 290.  I could probably hit my irons farther with a regular shaft. But accuracy is what you're looking for with irons. And woods for that matter. Fairways and GIR's.  Add a decent short game and you're breaking 80.

I switched from regular shafts to stiff this year and while I haven't really played any rounds yet I have noticed what looks to be a 5 yard loss on average. The clubs I got also have slightly stronger lofts so I suspect the distance loss would be more like 10 + if the lofts were the same.