Tom Wishon on being fit for clubs

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

His books are pure propaganda, his claims even if true are not backed up and not reviewed.

He makes radical claims that he simply cannot back up. His books do the same. I understand that he is fighting to save his small niche in the golf world that is constantly under attack from the marketing departments of every major golf outfit but that doesn't change that his chosen method of doing so is through writing books that are written as if they are scientific or backed by research and testing but are in fact merely his opinion. His untested, unproven and totally unreviewed opinion.

Let me begin by stating this post isn't intended to a "personal" attack or anything, but I thought you had some interesting views, especially with your propaganda statement, that I'd like to comment on.

Every golf company uses "progaganda" to help market their product.  Doesn't Taylor Made make a point of stating their drivers are used by more pros than Callaway, Ping, Nike combined?  Not sure exactly how they put it, but something like that.  Progaganda is defined as presenting "facts" which can positively influence an audience.  Progaganda will omit "facts" that quite possibly would not be beneficial to the ultimate "goal".  I think if you really researched Taylor Made's claim you'd find that although true, the real underlying fact is they developed more endorsement deals with pros than all the other companies combined.

I think Wishon presents tons of facts in his books which are undisputable.  He has attempted to educate players about custom fitting, specifically how they can benefit from the process.  Does he have an utltimate marketing interest in promoting custom fitting?  Sure he does, but so what.   You're allowed to market your product to the public.  All companies market what they have to sell.  You make it sound like a sin.

I've read all his books and personally attended training conducted by Tom Wishon.  I've never heard him trash the quality of major golf company equipment, quite the contrary, he says these products are top notice from a manufacturing standpoint...but the product could be even better through individual custom fitting.  Likewise, I've never seen where he's slandered any of these companies in print.  I've never seen his company being sued for slander by any of these major companies.  Must be some sort truth in what he's published and promoted.  As a matter of fact, I believe Wishon and other companies devoted to custom fitting have forced major brand companies to offer some sort of custom fitting options so they can attempt to garner sales in this area as well.

Wishon has a research, test and development center at his headquarters.  I believe he has data to back up his views with respect to custom fitting.  His abilities as a design engineer are quite impeccible. In over 30 years as a design engineer he's been credited with more than 50 design "firsts".  That's quite a few more than anyone else in the industry anywhere.  Sounds like I'm a Wishon "commerical", I know.  But my main point is this...he does know what he's talking about.  He's been sought after by more than one major golf company as the head of design, research and development.  He turned down these positions because he truely believes in custom fitting while the major companies are only interested in marketing and sales.  He started his own company so he could be in control of what's designed without having to worry about the bottom line, which is overall sales with major companies.

Does he have a marketing interest in writing his books and promoting his business?  Sure he does, but wnat company doesn't?  Does he tell lies and trash other companies in order to increase sales?  I don't see it, he simply points out facts and you come to your own conclusions.

[newtogolf]

Imagine if Tiger Woods wrote a book on playing better golf, and while he sprinkles some facts in about addressing the ball, and proper swings the recurring theme of the book is how important Nike golf clubs and equipment have been to his success.

After spending your hard earned money on a book to improve your golf game you find out, that what you really paid for is a Nike marketing brochure, many would trash him for such a book, but that's basically what Tom Wishon books are.  His books are printed informercials that he charges for.  He can make all the outrageous claims and spread all the propaganda he wants in brochures and magazine ads, but when you write a book that is to "dispel myths" about golf clubs and charge money for it there's an expectation that it's not marketing literature.    If you can't see the difference we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Shagbag

Every golf company uses "progaganda" to help market their product.  Doesn't Taylor Made make a point of stating their drivers are used by more pros than Callaway, Ping, Nike combined?

Does he have a marketing interest in writing his books and promoting his business?  Sure he does, but wnat company doesn't?  Does he tell lies and trash other companies in order to increase sales?  I don't see it, he simply points out facts and you come to your own conclusions.

[LankyLefty]

I never said the man couldn't design a club. He has proven he can and I wont knock you for playing them, I think at this point in time major manufacturers have an edge in being able to spend so much on R&D; but anyone who plays golf will probably have clubs with at least a Wishon inspired feature on them somewhere. My gripe with him is not in club design.

Even though it is not strictly enforced a company can not make a wild claim, that is not backed up by their product, under the law. If Taylormade said "Buy our driver and you'll gain 60 Yards." they'd get sued and lose because that is not anywhere near true. So companies are very motivated to do as much study and fact checking as possible to come up with data for marketing that they can back up. Now I am not naive enough to believe that the line they try to feed you is all or even mostly true... however they do not claim at any time to be anything else then a company marketing their product.

If Taylormade went and bought Consumer Reports and then magically next year Consumer Reports started writing articles about how great Taylormade is would you be inclined to believe them?

That is essentially what he does in his books... he claims to be auditing the golf world, same as consumer reports would audit a product, but in fact he is merely marketing for himself.

That is why product testing always has the "Tested Independently" disclaimer, you cannot be the maker and the tester and expect anyone to respect your results. What makes it even worse is that he does not actually test, or at least doesn't share the results, he merely speaks his opinion as if it were Ironclad fact and Hides behind the natural inclination for people to beleive something that is well worded and well explained even if it is wrong.

I doubt this very much, but lets say hes 100% right about everything... he has completely destroyed his own credibility in the way he has chosen to "reveal" his wisdom and secrets to the world.

You dont see the owners of Scratch Golf or KZG writeing books about how great their process is and how crappy everyone else's is and I think many people would agree that their product is superior to Wishon's. They realize that they undermine their own position by making such claims.

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

You dont see the owners of Scratch Golf or KZG writeing books about how great their process is and how crappy everyone else's is and I think many people would agree that their product is superior to Wishon's. They realize that they undermine their own position by making such claims.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I will say this in closing.  The owner of KZG golf is far from a custom fitting expert.  Tom Wishon has more than 30 years experience in designing golf clubs and in custom fitting.  He's chosen not to work for the major companies because they simply cannot custom fit mass produced golf clubs based upon the requirements of a single individual.

Both Scratch Golf and KZG offer great components.  The quality is there.  Are they superior to Wishon's designs, nope.  Are they inferior, nope.  The difference between Wishon and KZG is that each and every component offered by Tom Wishon is designed and manufactured with custom fitting in mind and each component in the line offers something different which equates to a better fitting capability for varying player styles.  Another difference is Wishon has been in the industry for 30+ years and the owner of KZG has not and that owner was not even part of the golf industry to my knowledge prior to opening KZG.

I build custom clubs for a living and I use other quality components besides those produced by Tom Wishon Golf Technology.  I used to carry KZG as well, but no longer do so, dropped them about 5 years go for good reasons, none of which I care to post on a golf forum.

Here's another interesting fact for you ... did you know the number two guy at Wishon Golf Technology used to work for KZG?  I don't think he has been working with Wishon for the past 8 years because KZG offers a higher quality product.

I find nothing wrong with Wishon attempting to educate the golfing public with respect to custom fitting.  I also don't have a problem with him charging a price to do so, he is the most qualitified expert in the field of custom fitting and there is little doubt about that.  Again, I have yet to find any "trashing" as you put it, with respect to the competition (major manufacturers).  He simply states they don't do true custom fitting and sometimes the specs and tolerances are sometimes not what they should be... and that's all true.  Don't think he's been sued by anyone yet ;)  You know what the book is about before you buy it.  Don't buy it if you think it's propaganda.  Just a question for you...did you buy the book and read it?  If you did buy, I'm sure you could sell it to someone who doesn't think it's propaganda and recoup some of your investment.  I'm betting you probably didn't buy it.

After all is said and done, you have the right to your opinion and I have the right to mine.  Truck on to the next hole brother!

[newtogolf]

Not looking to extend the debate, but insinuating that because a guy left KZG to go work for Wishon is justification of Wishons higher quality is a bit of a reach.  People change jobs within an industry for numerous reasons, usually a better job title or increase in income, I'd bet product quality doesn't rank in the top 5 reasons.  In my industry, guys leave HP to work at Dell and vice versa all the time, doesn't mean Dell is better than HP or vice versa.

Originally Posted by Shagbag

Here's another interesting fact for you ... did you know the number two guy at Wishon Golf Technology used to work for KZG?  I don't think he has been working with Wishon for the past 8 years because KZG offers a higher quality product.

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Not looking to extend the debate, but insinuating that because a guy left KZG to go work for Wishon is justification of Wishons higher quality is a bit of a reach.  People change jobs within an industry for numerous reasons, usually a better job title or increase in income, I'd bet product quality doesn't rank in the top 5 reasons.  In my industry, guys leave HP to work at Dell and vice versa all the time, doesn't mean Dell is better than HP or vice versa.

All these companies manufacture quality products made from the finest materials and in the best foundries...the same foundries the major companies use.  So from a "materials" and demand for strict tolerances in the finished product standpoint, there is virtually no difference.  Do I think one of the component companies is somewhat better than the other companies?  Yes, but that's simply based on my experience working with most of these companies, the design features I've seen first hand and it is quite simply my own opinion.    I'm not trying to defend one company and trash another.  I got into this discussion because of my opinion on Wishon's books.  Haven't changed my opinion on that matter and I could care less if anyone else has changed their's as a result of my posts.  I had an opinion and wanted to express it.

A little off the subject, but I think the one basic concept that sets apart the quality component companies (all of them, not just Wishon) is the "New Technology" marketing angle each and every year by the major golf club companies (the Taylor Mades, Titleist, Ping, etc, etc).  These days with limitations on head size, COR, grooves, etc, there is really no new technology to "sell" each year.  Most companies aren't selling anything new, just recreating the same basic designs of the past with different fancy cosmetics and calling it something else.  I remember when Ping was a great golf club company, recognized for innovations.  Ping, under the original owner and founder, could have cared less about cosmetics.  Not so today.  Major golf club companies think they need the fancy cosmetics to compete.  There's nothing different under all that eye candy.

What should sell is a proven design that was created with custom fitting in mind.  Companies like Wishon...and KZG, Alpha, etc included, don't come up with new radical designs each and every year and try and pass it off as some type of new technology.  A good many of these component companies' designs have been around for several years and are still going strong.  If something isn't broken, you don't need to polish it up, use different colored graphics and fancy medallions and then pass it off as something else.  Major golf club companies do this every year because they can't survive making the same models each and every year....why would you need to buy this year's model if it's the same as last year's?  Consumers should really take a long hard look at exactly what they are buying each and every year.  Some of the clubs being marketed this year have been marketed in past years...but sport a new look today with perhaps that new fancy paint job and a cool shiny new medallion.

Sorry for getting off the topic a little.  My rant is over and feel free to own your opinion, that's what makes this country great.

[golfernc]

Originally Posted by Shagbag

All these companies manufacture quality products made from the finest materials and in the best foundries...the same foundries the major companies use.  So from a "materials" and demand for strict tolerances in the finished product standpoint, there is virtually no difference.  Do I think one of the component companies is somewhat better than the other companies?  Yes, but that's simply based on my experience working with most of these companies, the design features I've seen first hand and it is quite simply my own opinion.    I'm not trying to defend one company and trash another.  I got into this discussion because of my opinion on Wishon's books.  Haven't changed my opinion on that matter and I could care less if anyone else has changed their's as a result of my posts.  I had an opinion and wanted to express it.

A little off the subject, but I think the one basic concept that sets apart the quality component companies (all of them, not just Wishon) is the "New Technology" marketing angle each and every year by the major golf club companies (the Taylor Mades, Titleist, Ping, etc, etc).  These days with limitations on head size, COR, grooves, etc, there is really no new technology to "sell" each year.  Most companies aren't selling anything new, just recreating the same basic designs of the past with different fancy cosmetics and calling it something else.  I remember when Ping was a great golf club company, recognized for innovations.  Ping, under the original owner and founder, could have cared less about cosmetics.  Not so today.  Major golf club companies think they need the fancy cosmetics to compete.  There's nothing different under all that eye candy.

What should sell is a proven design that was created with custom fitting in mind.  Companies like Wishon...and KZG, Alpha, etc included, don't come up with new radical designs each and every year and try and pass it off as some type of new technology.  A good many of these component companies' designs have been around for several years and are still going strong.  If something isn't broken, you don't need to polish it up, use different colored graphics and fancy medallions and then pass it off as something else.  Major golf club companies do this every year because they can't survive making the same models each and every year....why would you need to buy this year's model if it's the same as last year's?  Consumers should really take a long hard look at exactly what they are buying each and every year.  Some of the clubs being marketed this year have been marketed in past years...but sport a new look today with perhaps that new fancy paint job and a cool shiny new medallion.

Sorry for getting off the topic a little.  My rant is over and feel free to own your opinion, that's what makes this country great.

I agree 100 percent.  Most people think that because the club company comes out with a new driver that they will hit it straight...its almost the same club head as last yr, just with different paint and a lot of marketing.

I told this to someone and they responded with, "well that's bull**** because I got the new "whatever" club and its the exact same specs of my older one...I hit it farther and straighter."  We checked the specs, and the newer one was about 3 degrees off of what his last one was ( more loft) and the shaft was weaker.  That's why he hit it better, not because the new head. This day and age its about fitting. You can go buy a new driver and even if you hit it well on the range, the one you actually get can be completely different because of the tolerances of the bigger companies.  Just because its says your hitting a 6 iron or 9 degree driver or whatever does not mean you actually are.

You cant  fault the bigger companies because they just are not able to dial in each club...it would cost way to much money and they have stockholders. So as long as people know that its fine. They can make an educated decision on what they want to do. I think Tom Wishon, is just trying to give the consumers the information. Does he benefit from it...yes. What does that matter though?  Its not like there's a lot to argue there? Do custom fit clubs help you... yeah if fit properly ....would it be better to have clubs that are actually what you order... yeah.....do big box companies have low tolerances... yeah.  Its not like this is some radical idea......people have been saying this for a long time.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well. ...

Beginners can benefit from a static fitting - a basic fitting which checks to make sure the club length and lie angle match your physical build and stance. Detailed custom fittings, however, don't do beginners much good. Beginners have an unstable swing, and until the swing settles in they basically have a different swing every day. This is advice from three different teaching pros I have talked to.

For beginners, and mid- to high HDCP players, the key is to get clubs which won't hurt your game.

Quote:

Originally posted by golfernc:

Your last sentence is absolutely correct, however your first statement is saying the opposite.

Static fitting is basically equivalent to buying off the rack clubs. You cannot determine lie angle by looking at the club at address. You also should determine the length of the club dynamically.  You are also leaving out one of the most important factors when being fit; loft.  Static fitting is just something big box manufactures have created to make people think they are getting custom fit. The swing is a motion...so standing their taking measurements statically makes no sense ...

Static fitting looks at off-the-rack clubs to see if they fit the golfer; tweaks can follow a static fitting. It's like buying off-the-rack trousers, but getting an inch cut off the cuff so it fits you better and doesn't catch on your heel and trip you.

As for your second point, a static fitting should include the impact tape test/lie board to see if the lie angle is what the golfer needs. Impact test technically goes beyond "static," but when included it makes the fitting much more beneficial.

[golfernc]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

Your correct you should use a lie board and impact tape...that would make it a dynamic fitting.   A static fitting can't determine lie angle, length, flex, or loft correctly.  So when I say that static fitting and buying off the rack are the same, I mean they will produce the same results...its a guessing game.

[JesseV]

Played yesterday and couldn't hit driver for nothing. Choked down to shorten length of driver on holes 17 and 18. What do you know, striped two down the middle with no loss of distance both drives 250 +. :-D Seems I had better control of the driver by choking up! I never would have thought to choke up to shorten my driver without reading Wishon's book the search for the perfect golf club! I play Wishon 550C's that I found used and had rebuilt for my swing. I would say Tom Wishon knows his stuff!

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JesseV

Played yesterday and couldn't hit driver for nothing. Choked down to shorten length of driver on holes 17 and 18. What do you know, striped two down the middle with no loss of distance both drives 250 +.

Seems I had better control of the driver by choking up! I never would have thought to choke up to shorten my driver without reading Wishon's book the search for the perfect golf club!

I play Wishon 550C's that I found used and had rebuilt for my swing. I would say Tom Wishon knows his stuff!

You're joking, right?!?

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You're joking, right?!?

Why choke up when a hacksaw fits in your golf bag? INSTANT adjustment

[chicagogolf]

seems like everyone here is referring to the length of the club when talking about custom clubs. although that's important, let's not forget the weight. i think that varies more like a show size than the length of clubs.

[sblack5]

I recently switched my irons out from titleist mb710's that were fit to me in half an hour at a retail store doing the standard wrist to floor, lie board, and SS fitting.  I got fitted for Miuras.....it was a 5 hour process because I'm an anal prick for details....I'd hit off a trackman, in a certain configuration, and then if I liked it, go to a few key spots on the course when traffic cleared and try to hit shots with it.  then my fitter and I would go back to the equipment and try something new.  I knew going in that I wanted the 1957 baby blades and If I was gonna spend the cash it had to be prefect.  I hit dynamic gold shafts, rifle shafts, project x's and finally settled on KBS tour shafts because they gave me the best dispersion and the most consistent flight and feel from each repsective lie that I tried and for each shot I tried to hit.  My irons are also MOI matched which means they are totally balanced

My driver combo took lots of retail store trial and error to get right, and finally had to abandon all that and got fitted on a trackman to my current setup.  A retail guy will simply look at your SS and lauch to fit you for a driver.  A fitter will look at your swing tempo, transition, and release point to give you a shaft with proper butt, mid and tip flex to fit your swing, as well as someting with the correct loft.  getting fit by a top clubfitter is an exacting process, and if you havent been through it then you are missing out on the experience from which to speak and compare.  If I ever needed new gear or when I get some more age on me, I will go back through the process again because I know what kind of difference it makes.  just my .02

[chicagogolf]

those baby blades are EFFEN sweet

[chicagogolf]

I think all this propaganda talk is pretty funny. what would you rather pay for: books that discuss the finer points of custom fitting and educate yourself or the right to watch the same commercials from taylormade over and over? because when you buy an OEM product, you are paying for the pointless ads you see on the golf channel. but when you buy a book, you are being educated. when you buy wishon clubs you are paying for a real golf education. no one says you have to buy tom wishon clubs, but its only natural for a man who has this knowledge to offer it for a price along with his own golf clubs. OEMs don't offer knowledge. they just tell you what tiger woods is playing and hope you buy it.

[newtogolf]

Problem is Tom writes his books as if he's unbiased and has nothing to gain from turning golfers against the OEM's.  It would be like Consumer Reports having their own line of appliances or cars and trashing all the other brands except theirs.

You can't act like a consumer advocate and then hard sell your own brand, it's a conflict of interest.  He and his representatives could offer fittings for OEM brands where he'd be selling his knowledge and ability to fit clubs instead of an alternative brand of clubs that he profits significantly from.

Originally Posted by chicagogolf

I think all this propaganda talk is pretty funny. what would you rather pay for: books that discuss the finer points of custom fitting and educate yourself or the right to watch the same commercials from taylormade over and over? because when you buy an OEM product, you are paying for the pointless ads you see on the golf channel. but when you buy a book, you are being educated. when you buy wishon clubs you are paying for a real golf education. no one says you have to buy tom wishon clubs, but its only natural for a man who has this knowledge to offer it for a price along with his own golf clubs. OEMs don't offer knowledge. they just tell you what tiger woods is playing and hope you buy it.