Explain to me again! Long,straight and forgiving isn't what we should aspire too?

[Ernest Jones]

If that were even remotely true than all irons would be the same and there would be no difference between blades and GI irons.

Pros don't like ballooning every shot they hit, that's why they don't, generally speaking, play GIs. The COG is too low and they can't control the trajectory as well as they can with a players iron. Most amateurs need a little help in that department because their mechanics suck and their SS is low, that's not the case with pros.

[iacas]

If that were even remotely true than all irons would be the same and there would be no difference between blades and GI irons.

Mishit help with higher MOI. Lower CG helps get the ball in the air. So no, they wouldn't all be the same.

[MrSinister]

OK because I really don't feel like playing this game anymore I wont get into that fact that weight placement on that flat piece of iron can affect ball flight not just the direction of that iron, I will retract my previous statement and let you think what you will.

[cipher]

OK because I really don't feel like playing this game anymore I wont get into that fact that weight placement on that flat piece of iron can affect ball flight not just the direction of that iron, I will retract my previous statement and let you think what you will.

At what angle the face hits the ball in relation to the path is what affects ball flight.  Not much else.

[Ernest Jones]

OK because I really don't feel like playing this game anymore I wont get into that fact that weight placement on that flat piece of iron can affect ball flight not just the direction of that iron, I will retract my previous statement and let you think what you will.

Ok. I've got some lead tape I can sell you. :-) On a more serious note, you would have to add such an incredibly massive amount of lead to see any appreciable difference that the club would likely become unplayable.

[rustyredcab]

back to the OP's question about why people don't all play SGI clubs:

I don't know the physics or design concept behind my old Fusions, but they felt "hot" when hit well. The ball seemed to jump. I was hitting a smooth wedge 135. Sometimes it would go 150 with, what felt like, the same swing. I am not a big hitter. Perhaps my average swing was missing the sweet spot and I just never felt it. To me, it felt like there were sweet spots and hot spots on those clubs.

Those GI or SGI clubs served me well for many years. But, I wanted fewer hot spot shots and was willing to give up distance to get it. Today, I hit a PW when I have 110-120 and that is fine with me -- thank you very much.

Preferred shot shape with irons: laser straight. I sometime have a bit of a draw and I can not hit a fade on demand to save my life.

[mvmac]

back to the OP's question about why people don't all play SGI clubs:

I don't know the physics or design concept behind my old Fusions, but they felt "hot" when hit well. The ball seemed to jump. I was hitting a smooth wedge 135. Sometimes it would go 150 with, what felt like, the same swing. I am not a big hitter. Perhaps my average swing was missing the sweet spot and I just never felt it. To me, it felt like there were sweet spots and hot spots on those clubs.

Well one reason could be that the faces were titanium

[hacker101]

back to the OP's question about why people don't all play SGI clubs:

I don't know the physics or design concept behind my old Fusions, but they felt "hot" when hit well. The ball seemed to jump. I was hitting a smooth wedge 135. Sometimes it would go 150 with, what felt like, the same swing. I am not a big hitter. Perhaps my average swing was missing the sweet spot and I just never felt it. To me, it felt like there were sweet spots and hot spots on those clubs.

Those GI or SGI clubs served me well for many years. But, I wanted fewer hot spot shots and was willing to give up distance to get it. Today, I hit a PW when I have 110-120 and that is fine with me -- thank you very much.

Preferred shot shape with irons: laser straight. I sometime have a bit of a draw and I can not hit a fade on demand to save my life.

Funny i just had a guy join my group the other day he was playing a Fusion set of clubs and said the same thing, no control on his distance at all. Even when he took a mis-hit the ball went streight but no way to tell how far it was going.

He said he was one his way to trade them in that week because of this issue.

[PirateJim]

So... I'm guessing Stug, the OP, is still wondering if his very legit question is getting answered. My personal opinion is that straight and forgiving are indeed something to aspire to. Long? Well, for me, not so much long as consistent is becomming more important as has been mentioned by others. Some people claim to "shape" a lot, if not most of their shots. I presume they do. I think most people, including pros, tend to mostly hit their natural shot shape and work with it, only choosing a different shape when they really have to. Seems to me that if that natural shape is basically straight it wouldn't suck. I argue fairly often that higher handicap players should stick to game improvement clubs. They come in various degrees of GI'ness, i.e. more or less offset, top line thickness, overall head size, sole width, etc. I certainly count myself among those who can still benifit from extra forgivness. At a 20 handicap index, I would suggest definately sticking to the GI class. Golf is hard enough.

[mvmac]

So... I'm guessing Stug, the OP, is still wondering if his very legit question is getting answered.

The benefit of GI irons has been answered, thanks to Erik

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

How about we just understand the facts of the matter: GI irons are no more difficult to "shape" when hit on the sweet spot than the most blade-like of clubs. It's just physics, and it's fact. All the ball cares about at impact is clubhead mass (can easily be the same on a GI iron and a blade), the direction of the center of mass, the location of the center of mass, and the angle of the face.

Where GI irons excel is in getting the ball up in the air, and on helping to reduce the error caused by mishits due to their higher MOI. But nobody good "shapes the ball" by mishitting the ball (missing the sweet spot).

In short, it's an old wive's tale that GI irons are "harder" to shape the ball. I used to say the same types of things. And it's still true in one area - because GI irons tend to want to force the ball UP in the air with a much lower CG, they tend to be more resistant to hitting a ball LOW. But a) we're talking about a few degrees, and b) nobody is referring to hitting the ball 2° lower then they say "shape the ball." They're talking about curve.

I will also add that I agree that hitting blades can improve your "ballstriking" because you will know more when you mishit the ball slightly. GI irons tend to transmit less feedback, so you don't know if you tried to cut the ball but hit it on the toe and ended up with a straight push because the gear effect canceled out the fade you tried to hit, while a blade will tell you "you toed it!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Mishit help with higher MOI. Lower CG helps get the ball in the air.

[SloverUT]

All I have to say on the matter of shaping with GI clubs is this:  I use Ping G20's and I can shape the ball (draw/fade) easily.  In fact, I was overdoing it a bit in my round today and had to tone it down a bit.

[Stug]

Very difficult!

Head v Heart

My original premise was `why don't we take all the help we can get`...

YET I have just hit 4 different clubs including my hearts favourites JPX 825 pro (don't really know why they are) and my heads new favourites Callaway X hot.

The Callaways had great distance (I know they are longer and stronger) but a dispersion of 4 yards averaged over a dozen hits ( way better than Pings, JPX 825 and 825 pro) but I have this stupid thought I want the 'better club' even though the Callaways far out performed them all.

Explain it to me please.

[Tee2Trees]

I used to have a set of Wilson Di7 with uniflex graphite shafts.  I quit using them the day after I sent my 8 iron 175 yds off the tee  when my "normal" distance is 145.  Could've hurt someone.  I wasn't that great at ballstriking so the unpredictability of the occasional dead-center strike vs a 1/4" off-center was too much to worry about.  I now play Adams Super S which is still in the same category but a slight mishit goes much closer to the same distance as a flushed shot, requiring me to be less precise to hit it close.

I play with a buddy who is close to scratch.  He went from a set of ping i10 to Srixon Z-star (Z-Star is more GI).  He typically hits his drive long and off in the light rough away from the "trouble side", then hits an iron some obscene distance safely onto the green (like a 190yd 7i), and craftily makes a 1 or 2 putt.  No shot-shaping involved there, and seemingly not even pinpoint accuracy, but he always scores near par from the tips at any course we play.  I suppose if a more difficult course involved some really tight fairways or bad rough he would have to learn to hit a different club off the tee (his next longest club is an old King Cobra 2 1-iron and of course he kills it off the deck, makes no sense).

[rustyredcab]

Very difficult!

Head v Heart

My original premise was `why don't we take all the help we can get`...

YET I have just hit 4 different clubs including my hearts favourites JPX 825 pro (don't really know why they are) and my heads new favourites Callaway X hot.

The Callaways had great distance (I know they are longer and stronger) but a dispersion of 4 yards averaged over a dozen hits ( way better than Pings, JPX 825 and 825 pro) but I have this stupid thought I want the 'better club' even though the Callaways far out performed them all.

Explain it to me please.

" the Callaways far out performed them all"

If they really did out perform them all, then get them. If your distances are consistent with the X Hots, then play them.

Not sure what you want explained. If it is why we want "better" clubs, than I would hazard a guess that we have been taught, conditioned, and sold the concept they less forgiving and "better" clubs will make us more like better players. I would not put a lot of stock in that. All high-end brand names clubs are manufactured to pretty high standards -- compared to many years ago. I'd say "better" should be replaced with "different."

All that said, I play MP-53's which are less forgiving than my JPX 800 Pro's because I think I can control the distance better with the 53's. So, with regards to distance control, I'd say they out perform the others.

[PirateJim]

All high-end brand names clubs are manufactured to pretty high standards -- compared to many years ago. I'd say "better" should be replaced with "different."

This.

All of the club makers are aiming to make good clubs that will satisfy some of the people.  They all know that they can't satisfy everyone with one set, so they make various types, and the market sort of pushes them to make a set to fit most of the "market segments."

I'm not a great golfer, but I firmly believe that for many if not most of us, how your clubs feel to you, and look to you, makes a big difference in how they will perform for you.  I think there are a lot of people that want clubs that look good to them and who make excuses about shaping the ball for buying the pretty clubs they want.  That's fine, but to the original point; long straight and forgiving will indeed help lower most golfers scores.

[Stug]

I've been offered a set of Mizuno mx 25's for a steal.

Anybody got an opinion on these clubs?

I know they are a few years old now but reviews from that time seem positive.

Good clubs for someone who hits good shots really well but is still inconsistent?

Might let me wait a while to improve and spend some of the money I was going to spend on some lessons instead.

Steve

[Ernest Jones]

I've been offered a set of Mizuno mx 25's for a steal. Anybody got an opinion on these clubs? I know they are a few years old now but reviews from that time seem positive. Good clubs for someone who hits good shots really well but is still inconsistent? Might let me wait a while to improve and spend some of the money I was going to spend on some lessons instead. Steve

Never hit them but have heard good things. Way too fat and chunky (think Callaway) for my eye but some people feel more confident with that type of head. What are you playing now and what don't you like about them?

[Stug]

Thanks for that. Hopefully striking the ball well will be more important than the looks of the club.