Does the USGA Ever "Re-Rate" Courses Based on Player's Data?

[RFKFREAK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFKFREAK

I wonder about this.  There's a course not that far from me and the distance on the scorecard is extremely off.

The scorecard and the distances posted at each hole totals up to 6032 yards but I measured it at 4800 yards.

The course has a few bunkers, no water hazards, and the course rating is 68.0 with a slope rating of 111.

It seems a disparity of over 1000 yards would make a significant difference to CR/Slope, right?

I think I'll use this course as a place to play practice rounds since I don't feel comfortable including the scores from that course for my handicap.

I don't see why not, if the course ratings are correct it really doesn't matter how long is the course.

The only thing that is affected by the 1000 yard disparity is the "average driving/club distance" calculation. However, the fact that it is off by 1000 yards is kind of abnormal, are you sure about your measurements? Did you use Google Earth to measure them?

The course rating is factored into the handicap calculation. 68.0/111 is a pretty standard municipal course. We have ones in the San Gabriel Valley area that are rated from 56/102 all the way to 76.3/135.

When you play an easier or harder course the score and course ratings are factored into your handicap for that round.

The course only has ladies and men's tees.

And the reason I don't feel comfortable using the scores there to put in for my handicap is because I don't know if the course has changed since it was rated or what the reason is for the 1200 yard disparity between what the club states the course yardage and what the measurements I've taken with my GPS.

I'm going to do a calculation on Google Earth now to see what I come up with.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFKFREAK

I wonder about this.  There's a course not that far from me and the distance on the scorecard is extremely off.

The scorecard and the distances posted at each hole totals up to 6032 yards but I measured it at 4800 yards.

The course has a few bunkers, no water hazards, and the course rating is 68.0 with a slope rating of 111.

It seems a disparity of over 1000 yards would make a significant difference to CR/Slope, right?

I think I'll use this course as a place to play practice rounds since I don't feel comfortable including the scores from that course for my handicap.

I don't see why not, if the course ratings are correct it really doesn't matter how long is the course.

The only thing that is affected by the 1000 yard disparity is the "average driving/club distance" calculation. However, the fact that it is off by 1000 yards is kind of abnormal, are you sure about your measurements? Did you use Google Earth to measure them?

The course rating is factored into the handicap calculation. 68.0/111 is a pretty standard municipal course. We have ones in the San Gabriel Valley area that are rated from 56/102 all the way to 76.3/135.

When you play an easier or harder course the score and course ratings are factored into your handicap for that round.

The course only has ladies and men's tees.

And the reason I don't feel comfortable using the scores there to put in for my handicap is because I don't know if the course has changed since it was rated or what the reason is for the 1200 yard disparity between what the club states the course yardage and what the measurements I've taken with my GPS.

I'm going to do a calculation on Google Earth now to see what I come up with.

This will give you very accurate results.

The ratings seem to be consistent with the published yardage. (68/111 6032 yards)

Strange that they did not publish a new scorecard with the corrected yardages and course ratings.

[RFKFREAK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFKFREAK

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFKFREAK

I wonder about this.  There's a course not that far from me and the distance on the scorecard is extremely off.

The scorecard and the distances posted at each hole totals up to 6032 yards but I measured it at 4800 yards.

The course has a few bunkers, no water hazards, and the course rating is 68.0 with a slope rating of 111.

It seems a disparity of over 1000 yards would make a significant difference to CR/Slope, right?

I think I'll use this course as a place to play practice rounds since I don't feel comfortable including the scores from that course for my handicap.

I don't see why not, if the course ratings are correct it really doesn't matter how long is the course.

The only thing that is affected by the 1000 yard disparity is the "average driving/club distance" calculation. However, the fact that it is off by 1000 yards is kind of abnormal, are you sure about your measurements? Did you use Google Earth to measure them?

The course rating is factored into the handicap calculation. 68.0/111 is a pretty standard municipal course. We have ones in the San Gabriel Valley area that are rated from 56/102 all the way to 76.3/135.

When you play an easier or harder course the score and course ratings are factored into your handicap for that round.

The course only has ladies and men's tees.

And the reason I don't feel comfortable using the scores there to put in for my handicap is because I don't know if the course has changed since it was rated or what the reason is for the 1200 yard disparity between what the club states the course yardage and what the measurements I've taken with my GPS.

I'm going to do a calculation on Google Earth now to see what I come up with.

This will give you very accurate results.

The ratings seem to be consistent with the published yardage.

Strange that they did not publish a new scorecard with the corrected yardages and course ratings.

I'm not that surprised, to be honest.  They really don't take care of the place and it's pretty run down.  I guess that's why it only costs $16 a round.

[Spitfisher]

My course is relatively young, built in the early 90s, its a tough course plays almost 2 strokes higher than most in the area, lots of local knowledge. That's said it has been rated 3 times that I am aware of. One hole par 4 hole went from 13 toughest hole on the card, down to the 6th. This was based on both public and private golfers data (cards).  I believe the course to be fairly accurate now.

I think the rerating is not mandatory but more of a suggestion or request by the GM or owner to the USGA based on changes, trimming, length and other factors.

[rkim291968]

I am not aware of re-rating based on player's data.  But two of the courses I frequent were re-rated as part of regular rating process (once every 6 years).

Oddly, both rating changes were from higher to lower difficulty ratings.  It's a small sample size but I wonder if  players getting better b/c of advance in golf equipment technology?   What did others see in golf course rating changes?

[iacas]

My home course is getting a rating update using the mens club scores, the handicap holes have been re-assigned with the odd numbers switched to the back 9, we used to have the 18 hdcp hole as a par 4 that measured out to 441 from the tips. now it's a par 4 that measure 310 from tips.

My course is relatively young, built in the early 90s, its a tough course plays almost 2 strokes higher than most in the area, lots of local knowledge. That's said it has been rated 3 times that I am aware of. One hole par 4 hole went from 13 toughest hole on the card, down to the 6th. This was based on both public and private golfers data (cards).  I believe the course to be fairly accurate now.

As you both probably know, hole handicaps are not relative to the difficulty of the individual holes .

They're simply based - when they're done by using a few hundred scorecards - on where the higher scoring player needs the most help to produce an "even "match.

Par threes are often 15-18 because everyone gets 4s and 5s on them.

Par fives are often rated 1-4 because the scratch golfer gets birdies or pars, while the bogey golfer gets 5s, 6s, 7s.

That's it. It's just the differential.

I knew of one 240-yard par three that was the 17th handicap hole. Nobody ever pars the hole, but most people end up with a 4, so there's no scoring spread, and the higher handicapper doesn't need strokes there against the lower player.

The par is irrelevant. If I made a 460-yard hole a par five or a par three, it'd still probably be a low handicap hole because better players are able to score better on that hole than poorer players, creating that separation.

I am not aware of re-rating based on player's data.  But two of the courses I frequent were re-rated as part of regular rating process (once every 6 years).

The handicap values assigned to each of the holes can originally be done based on the "scratch" and "bogey" ratings for each of the holes, but then is more accurately often re-done later based on hundreds of scorecards.

This isn't "re-rating" the course at all - it's simply re-assigning the handicap values.

Oddly, both rating changes were from higher to lower difficulty ratings.  It's a small sample size but I wonder if  players getting better b/c of advance in golf equipment technology?   What did others see in golf course rating changes?

Perhaps the conditions softened, or the new rating is more accurate (or less accurate). Because, no, the standards haven't changed. The course ratings don't change one bit based on scorecard data.

[JoePete]

My course is relatively young, built in the early 90s, its a tough course plays almost 2 strokes higher than most in the area, lots of local knowledge. That's said it has been rated 3 times that I am aware of. One hole par 4 hole went from 13 toughest hole on the card, down to the 6th. This was based on both public and private golfers data (cards).  I believe the course to be fairly accurate now.

I think the rerating is not mandatory but more of a suggestion or request by the GM or owner to the USGA based on changes, trimming, length and other factors.

Don't confuse the Course/Slope Rating process with the stroke-hole ranking. The course rating is administered by your regional association under the guidelines of the USGA and yields the course and slope ratings for each set of tees. The stroke hole ranking is up to each course/club. There are some prudent guidelines, the main one being that the top stroke hole is not the most difficult but rather the one where it is most likely the bogey golfer needs a stroke to equal the scratch golfer. A good example, something like a 470 yard par 4 that almost everyone bogeys may be four or five on the ranking since it is hard on everybody. Whereas something like 440 yard par 4 may be the top stroke hole because the scratch golfer always gets on in two but the bogey golfer needs three shots to get on. Another guideline is you hardly ever want a par 3 to be highly ranked as it is a one shot hole for nearly everybody. This is why clubs use actual data, to see where that gap between good players and average ones most likely occur.

[rkim291968]

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I am not aware of re-rating based on player's data.  But two of the courses I frequent were re-rated as part of regular rating process (once every 6 years).

The handicap values assigned to each of the holes can originally be done based on the "scratch" and "bogey" ratings for each of the holes, but then is more accurately often re-done later based on hundreds of scorecards.

This isn't "re-rating" the course at all - it's simply re-assigning the handicap values.

I was referring to the slope rating, not handicap values assigned to each hole.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Quote:

Originally Posted by RFKFREAK

I wonder about this.  There's a course not that far from me and the distance on the scorecard is extremely off.

The scorecard and the distances posted at each hole totals up to 6032 yards but I measured it at 4800 yards.

The course has a few bunkers, no water hazards, and the course rating is 68.0 with a slope rating of 111.

It seems a disparity of over 1000 yards would make a significant difference to CR/Slope, right?

I think I'll use this course as a place to play practice rounds since I don't feel comfortable including the scores from that course for my handicap.

I don't see why not, if the course ratings are correct it really doesn't matter how long is the course.

The only thing that is affected by the 1000 yard disparity is the "average driving/club distance" calculation. However, the fact that it is off by 1000 yards is kind of abnormal, are you sure about your measurements? Did you use Google Earth to measure them?

The course rating is factored into the handicap calculation. 68.0/111 is a pretty standard municipal course. We have ones in the San Gabriel Valley area that are rated from 56/102 all the way to 76.3/135.

When you play an easier or harder course the score and course ratings are factored into your handicap for that round.

The course only has ladies and men's tees.

And the reason I don't feel comfortable using the scores there to put in for my handicap is because I don't know if the course has changed since it was rated or what the reason is for the 1200 yard disparity between what the club states the course yardage and what the measurements I've taken with my GPS.

I'm going to do a calculation on Google Earth now to see what I come up with.

If you do this, measure down the center of the fairway to the center point of any dogleg or curve, then from that point to the center of the green (or to center of the next bend if it's a double dogleg).  You can't measure a straight line from tee to green and get an accurate yardage, or even a close approximation.

[jgreen85]

If you do this, measure down the center of the fairway to the center point of any dogleg or curve, then from that point to the center of the green (or to center of the next bend if it's a double dogleg).  You can't measure a straight line from tee to green and get an accurate yardage, or even a close approximation.

Thanks for this. Just to clarify, if a hole says it's 360 yds, it's 360 if a golfer follows the set up of the hole? Like you said, hits to center of dogleg and then straight to the pin? For example, I've played holes that say they're 350yds, so I play a hybrid to the dogleg, but always seem to be 20-30yds further out than I expected to be. I know there could be other reasons I'm further out, but wanted to clarify for future reference.

Thanks! Sorry it's slightly off-topic.

[Golfingdad]

Thanks for this. Just to clarify, if a hole says it's 360 yds, it's 360 if a golfer follows the set up of the hole? Like you said, hits to center of dogleg and then straight to the pin? For example, I've played holes that say they're 350yds, so I play a hybrid to the dogleg, but always seem to be 20-30yds further out than I expected to be. I know there could be other reasons I'm further out, but wanted to clarify for future reference.

Thanks! Sorry it's slightly off-topic.

That's correct.  But you also have to pay attention to where the actual tee markers are in relation to the plaque.  Some tee areas are 20 yards long.  Also, a lot of times, courses move them to a whole other tee box entirely.  (They'll push the blues up to the white tee box for whatever reason, for example ... you almost never see the tees back of where they belong)

This all adds up to why I love having a laser.  It just doesn't matter, because you override any paper numbers which actual live distances anyway. :)

[RFKFREAK]

[QUOTE name="RFKFREAK" url="/t/73327/does-the-usga-ever-re-rate-courses-based-on-players-data/18#post_966280"]   [QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/73327/does-the-usga-ever-re-rate-courses-based-on-players-data#post_966275"]   [QUOTE name="RFKFREAK" url="/t/73327/does-the-usga-ever-re-rate-courses-based-on-players-data#post_966200"]   I wonder about this.  There's a course not that far from me and the distance on the scorecard is extremely off.  The scorecard and the distances posted at each hole totals up to 6032 yards but I measured it at 4800 yards. The course has a few bunkers, no water hazards, and the course rating is 68.0 with a slope rating of 111. It seems a disparity of over 1000 yards would make a significant difference to CR/Slope, right?   I think I'll use this course as a place to play practice rounds since I don't feel comfortable including the scores from that course for my handicap . [/QUOTE] I don't see why not, if the course ratings are correct it really doesn't matter how long is the course. The only thing that is affected by the 1000 yard disparity is the "average driving/club distance" calculation. However, the fact that it is off by 1000 yards is kind of abnormal, are you sure about your measurements? Did you use Google Earth to measure them? The course rating is factored into the handicap calculation. 68.0/111 is a pretty standard municipal course. We have ones in the San Gabriel Valley area that are rated from 56/102 all the way to 76.3/135. When you play an easier or harder course the score and course ratings are factored into your handicap for that round. [/QUOTE] The course only has ladies and men's tees. And the reason I don't feel comfortable using the scores there to put in for my handicap is because I don't know if the course has changed since it was rated or what the reason is for the 1200 yard disparity between what the club states the course yardage and what the measurements I've taken with my GPS. I'm going to do a calculation on Google Earth now to see what I come up with. [/QUOTE] If you do this, measure down the center of the fairway to the center point of any dogleg or curve, then from that point to the center of the green (or to center of the next bend if it's a double dogleg).  You can't measure a straight line from tee to green and get an accurate yardage, or even a close approximation.

So, I did this with Google Earth and once again, the difference in yardage is over 1200 yards. Such a difference in the posted yardage and the actual yardage would certainly greatly impact the CR/Slope, right?

[Lihu]

So, I did this with Google Earth and once again, the difference in yardage is over 1200 yards.

Such a difference in the posted yardage and the actual yardage would certainly greatly impact the CR/Slope, right?

Not sure how they are measured, but that's only something like 66 yards per hole.

Seems reasonable, because many times they measure the variation in terrain as well.

I played a particular hole that was listed as only 360 yards, and I had less than 60 yards left to the green. I know I can't drive 300 yards. More like 260 on really good shots, and the occasional 275. On this hole I measured it to be 320 yards on google earth, or 40 yards shorter than the yardage listed.

I wouldn't worry too much about the variation in the yardage and the slope ratings for now.

[Spitfisher]

Not sure how they are measured, but that's only something like 66 yards per hole. Seems reasonable, because many times they measure the variation in terrain as well. I played a particular hole that was listed as only 360 yards, and I had less than 60 yards left to the green. I know I can't drive 300 yards. More like 260 on really good shots, and the occasional 275. On this hole I measured it to be 320 yards on google earth, or 40 yards shorter than the yardage listed. I wouldn't worry too much about the variation in the yardage and the slope ratings for now.

Did you measure tee to hole? Holes can be measured from the middle of the fairway, meaning if there is a slight dogleg at the 100 yard mark, you next shot could be 75 yards as the crow flies. That's the beauty of using a garmin watch, you could be in the next fairway and know exactly how far to the green.

[RFKFREAK]

[quote name="Lihu" url="/t/73327/does-the-usga-ever-re-rate-courses-based-on-players-data/18#post_970760"] Not sure how they are measured, but that's only something like 66 yards per hole. Seems reasonable, because many times they measure the variation in terrain as well. I played a particular hole that was listed as only 360 yards, and I had less than 60 yards left to the green. I know I can't drive 300 yards. More like 260 on really good shots, and the occasional 275. On this hole I measured it to be 320 yards on google earth, or 40 yards shorter than the yardage listed. I wouldn't worry too much about the variation in the yardage and the slope ratings for now.

Did you measure tee to hole? Holes can be measured from the middle of the fairway, meaning if there is a slight dogleg at the 100 yard mark, you next shot could be 75 yards as the crow flies.[/quote] @lihu I didn't realize courses could have such disparity. I haven't noticed it with other courses I've played. I only care because of handicap purposes. @spitfisher This particular course has only one dogleg and I measured from tee to center of the green.

[Lihu]

Did you measure tee to hole? Holes can be measured from the middle of the fairway, meaning if there is a slight dogleg at the 100 yard mark, you next shot could be 75 yards as the crow flies.

Also, I found that even with no doglegs they seem to take uphill,downhill, variation in the elevation like dips or even elevated greens into account. The yardages rarely are the same as the ones I measure on google earth or with my laser.

[iacas]

Also, I found that even with no doglegs they seem to take uphill,downhill, variation in the elevation like dips or even elevated greens into account. The yardages rarely are the same as the ones I measure on google earth or with my laser.

It's not like they're using wheels, @Lihu . They usually use lasers to measure the distances too. And they have computers, so they can use Google Earth too.

[Lihu]

It's not like they're using wheels, @Lihu. They usually use lasers to measure the distances too. And they have computers, so they can use Google Earth too.

In that case, I am probably just not measuring from the correct way points as @Spitfisher described.